Does a DBA have more utility than a Ph.D?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by jagmct1, Jul 7, 2005.

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  1. jagmct1

    jagmct1 New Member

    Hello Everyone,

    How many people out there actually completed a DBA graduate program and if so, what has been your employment successes and/or failures?

    My father, who holds a Ph.D in engineering and was a university professor at UNH, has discouraged my pursuit of a Ph.D due to the degree being perceived as over qualified for the private sector employment arena. Other Ph.D graduates that I've talked with have also had similar experiences.

    When we talk about degree utility, it seems the higher up you go in education, the less opportunities are available. Granted, you can demand a higher paying salary, but you need to get the job before that can happen. My father was the vicitm of countless lay offs with his Ph.D due to being higher up in the employment market and higher salary demands.

    As for the DBA, it seems to me that it may be less threatening in the private employment market verses a Ph.D and you still have the option to teach at a college or university. It appears to me that a DBA may have more utility than a Ph.D.

    Although, how many business leaders out there actually hold a DBA degree? I can't seem to find any. Is this because of the DBA being relatively new?
     
  2. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    This hasn't been measured.

    My opinion would be the opposite: that a Ph.D. would be more utile, simply because more people would know what it is right off.

    Your scenario requires that people simultaneously recognized that you have a doctorate, yet not perceive you as negatively as they would a Ph.D. It doesn't seem likely.

    But when push comes to shove, I doubt there is much difference at all.
     
  3. DTechBA

    DTechBA New Member

    The DBA...

    is considered a degree for practitioners of business and is probably more highly regarded in European business circles than it is here in the USA. For example, in Germany a doctorate is very prestigious and I would imagine a DBA to be of great benefit in business circles there. However, considering the degree creep of the past couple of decades it isn't hard to imagine that the DBA will start to have more utility in US business circles in the near future.

    Academically speaking, it is not uncommon to see ads in the CHEA for business profs that request a PhD or DBA from a professionally accredited program (usually AACSB). Probably a lot of interchangeability for the degrees with most schools. One plus I see with the DBA is that it can give you an opportunity to meet the 18 semester hour requirement in your sunject area that isn't necessarily available with an MBA/PhD combination. For example, the University of Newcastle's program as a requirement for 4 business classes before you hit the research methodolgy classes. That would allow someone to add on to their MBA classes to meet the 18 hour requirement.

    I have seen ads in the past from businesses looking for doctorates in trraining for example so there is some utility for them in the USA outside of academia....
     
  4. little fauss

    little fauss New Member

    You could also just do a DM or EDM (Doctor of Management/Exec Doc...). Would likely be viewed less strangely in industry, if that's where you want to go. Case Western Reserve has an outstanding EDM program available via distance, but you'd better already have some management experience under the belt or they'll likely not give you a serious look. It's also expensive and requires some fairly substantial residencies, something like one weekend a month. Still, if you live within 500 miles of Cleveland and have an understanding employer you might be able to swing it.

    There's also a distance DM available through the University of Maryland-University College. It's not AACSB-accredited, though.

    If you ever want to teach someday, remember that a DM will not do you much good except at small, non-research-oriented colleges, where it would likely be seen as just an "MBA-plus", but not on par with a PhD or DBA.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2005
  5. bing

    bing New Member

    I think that the utility is greater with the PhD because there is no confusion on this being a doctorate. DBA, and I am in the computer end of the world, can mean "doing business as" or "database administrator". So, people who have never received a college degree can be a DBA, doing business as.

    DBA is looked at often as a practitioner degree. It would have most utility in the business world. Some schools might offer a DBA and PhD in business others might just offer a DBA or PhD. The programs might be extremely similar, though. PhDs teach, do research, and are accepted in both academic and busines world. DBA's might be catching up as more schools bring them into faculty. My opinion is that the PhD is still king.

    As a side comment, note that the DETC is not going to do PhD's. They are going with DBA's. I do have the belief that this says something on the utility factor right off the bat.
     
  6. Kirkland

    Kirkland Member

    It is unknown whether a PhD has more utility than a DBA only because an individual's value in the workplace is based on so many other factors.

    The vast majority of business positions don't require a doctorate; a bachelors works fine, a masters is desirable. The determinant in business is what you have done recently and what you can do for the company, mostly related to revenue and profit. Where you went to school is considered training and not of much interest by your fellow workers. They assume you had the minimal credentials to get in. There are some positions (labs, research & development, some consulting positions, etc.) where a doctorate is a prerequisite for the position, but even then, workers at that level don't talk about their degrees. Even in a lab setting, it is results that count. Many managers are unimpressed since they may only have a bachelors. And we all know how envy and insecurity can work against you.

    Generally, the DBA is less recognized but for those who understand and appreciate it, it is considered more practical and valued as more action-oriented. A PhD has a higher level of recognition but is hampered by the perception that it is less action and more scholastic research and analytically oriented.

    Nevertheless, holding a doctorate is an asset. It opens doors if you do your part to position it and yourself properly in the workplace. The expectations on you are higher; you are expected to have a higher level of performance. Even though rarely discussed, there are tangible benefits to those holding a PhD or a DBA who also perform at the top of their field.
     
  7. Messagewriter

    Messagewriter New Member

    DBA

    Interesting thread but one point is missing. The focus has been on "getting" a job, rather than doing well "in" a job. Although distance/online RA programs are more similar in their emphasis between a DBA and PhD in business (ie: the PhD is very applied anyway), AACSB DBAs would be more different.

    The DBA would give you more practical, applied tools that you can use in the private sector to perform well and move up the corporate ladder. The PhD being highly theoretical does not do well in the applied world of the private sector - generally. Few employers actually "need" a PhD on staff and hence, won’t really pay a premium necessarily.

    The DBA might get you hired and promoted faster, simply because you are trained to do what many applied jobs require. It's a tough call and might have to do with what you look like on paper as a package, rather than hanging your hopes on any single degree. Ultimately if you can't create value and make cash for your employer, it won't matter what you have - you'll get punted.
     
  8. little fauss

    little fauss New Member

    Re: DBA

    Doing well in the job? Come on, that's not what this is all about, we just want to get the job. Man, get off it, you kidding us? ;)
     
  9. Scott Henley

    Scott Henley New Member

    DBA or PhD in business/management? Well, it depends how one decides to write it up:

    1. Doctor of Business Administration (DBA)
    2. Doctorate in Business Administration (DBA or PhD)
    3. Doctor of Philosophy in Business Administration (PhD)

    If you're worried how it will be perceived, write it up as Option 2 and identify yourself on correspondence as Dr. John Doe. Most people don't know the difference or don't care. You shouldn't either.

    Harvard Business School offers both the PhD and DBA. So do a lot of top, top, top universities. If a DBA is good enough for them, it should be good enough for anyone.

    I bet if you asked most people what DBA stands for, they couldn't tell you. I bet if you asked most people what PhD stands for, even less would know.

    Question: What do they call someone who graduates from a DBA program?

    Answer: DOCTOR
     
  10. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Re: DBA

    Can you be more specific? What about a DBA causes this, compared to a Ph.D.?

    I don't recall anyone on this board who holds either degree making such a distinction.
     
  11. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    The difference between the PhD in Business vs. the DBA is that the PhD was supposed to be more theoretical while the DBA was supposed to be more practical and applied. Also, the PhD was supposed to be narrower and more targeted (i.e., exclusively in )one business topic, while the DBA was supposed to be broader, covering all business topics. The PhD does allow for some of the coursework to be in an "outside minor field" (e.g., a PhD in Finance might take up to nine hours in marketing or human resources, etc.) and many DBAs do allow for a concentration now, usually amounting to about a third of the program. The PhD in Business was supposed to train business professors, while the DBA was supposed to train senior business executives. That said, nowadays, the distinctions are blurring and many DBAs are in academia and there are many corporate PhDs. I'm guessing that the DM is an attempt to do what the DBA was originally supposed to do (i.e., serve as the broader, more practical and applied business doctorate) but, even there I'm seeing a few DM programs beginning to be offered with specialties and concentrations. I am sure that there are some employers out there in the private sector who would view a PhD as over-qualified, too academic, and generally useless, but who would want to work for one of them anyway? There are some private sector fields in which the PhD would be considered as an asset: consulting, for example.
     
  12. Messagewriter

    Messagewriter New Member

    Rich's post

    Ted's post made my point, which I touched on in my post.

    "Although distance/online RA programs are more similar in their emphasis between a DBA and PhD in business (ie: the PhD is very applied anyway), AACSB DBAs would be more different."

    That this forum doesn't see the difference may be because most folks are doing DL/Online type degree programs in the first place, where the PhD is highly applied. Adult/DL/Online educational products are designed to be applied, but this is not the case in traditional B & M schools, where there is a major difference between a DBA and PhD.

    I made these comments when NCU came out with their DBA. Because NCU allows such applied research in the PhD, I don't see how they will ever differentiate these two programs.

    I'm doing the PhD at NCU soon. Employers know well how applied these programs are and will act accordingly, which is evidenced further when they read your dissertation submitted with the job application. I was generalizing across in my first post across the full spectrum - traditional B & M to the adult/distance programs.

    It's hard to compare them directly without prefacing the discussion, so I hope this helps.
     
  13. edowave

    edowave Active Member

    Being in a engineering department, I totally see what you are saying. It is making me think twice about continuing my PhD program. If your only goal is to find employment, the master's level should be high enough.

    My slightly different question is: Is there any utility in having a PhD ABD?
     
  14. Andy Borchers

    Andy Borchers New Member

    Rich - I think you are correct here. The DBA/PhD question is largely a matter of labeling. Over the years some schools have choosen one over the other (ex. Harvard and some southern schools issue DBAs while a whole host of schools issue PhDs in business). Others have used the degrees interchangeably - at one time Indiana gave graduates the choice with no difference in requriements. Yet other schools have had slightly different requriements - at one time Oklahoma required graduates to pass a foreign language test to earn the PhD but awarded the DBA without the language. Finally, some schools clearly make a difference - for example, Case Western has a traditional PhD program and a practitioner oriented Doctor of Management.

    For students considering doctoral study in business - I think the issue is quite minor compared to other more significant differences in programs. I would spend my time thinking about how the program is taught, who the faculty members are, what's in the curriculum, what are the research and collaboration opportunities - this is the important stuff. What you call your degree when you're done is a nit.

    As for hiring - virtually all the ads I see call for a PhD or DBA. The degree label really doesn't matter.

    Regards - Andy

     
  15. bing

    bing New Member

    Re: Re: Does a DBA have more utility than a Ph.D?

    If I see a resume with an ABD I would just think they did not finish something...and there could be a million reasons why they are ABD. At minimum it is a negative idea in my mind and not a positive in any fashion.

    I would think a certificate program might be a better option than an ABD.



     
  16. Messagewriter

    Messagewriter New Member

    ABD

    Lot's of programs award a master at some point in the PhD process, which is better than saying ABD I'd think. I agree with the previous poster.
     
  17. bing

    bing New Member

    I can see how jobs in faculty or administration in schools might not differentiate.

    I don't see many business jobs with a PhD requirement for sure. However, I do see many jobs in my field(informatics and computer information systems) where they are looking for PhDs. I have seen numerous ads where they state "PhD" as a requirement. I haven't seen any ads stating the requirement of "DBA", or even "PhD or DBA". So, in the minds of business the PhD is still king when a doctorate is required.

    Quite possibly, though, a person could make the case saying, "I have a doctorate....it's in business administration." Yet, would the DBA make the first cut when you have HR people going through resumes and not seeing the PhD requirement in there?

    Computers are more a scientific area than say Finance, though. At higher levels of management everyone is merging everywhere. Scientists and engineers move into the budgeting and admin jobs and then it gets skewed there with business. Still need a PhD type to look out after these scientist subordinates, though.

    And then again, my perspective is from the scientific community and not banking, or finance.

    Speaking of a DBA and computers. One thing seems odd to me at NCU. They have an option in the DBA program called "Applied Computer Science". To me, that says PhD for sure. If I requested a computer science doctorate I know I would not be looking at a DBA. I poked around a few DBA programs at Brick and Mortars. I did not see this sort of option in their DBA programs. As close as it came was "Information systems".

    I have a new question, that might be a new thread. Are these non-traditional DBA programs pseudo PhD programs? If they have a DBA in Applied Computer Science then what is the next step? A DBA concentration in History or Physics?







     
  18. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    Actually, Harvard issues both. Harvard Business School offers the DBA; in conjunction with the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences, Harvard Business School also offers the PhD in Business Economics, Information and Technology Management, and Organizational Behavior.
     
  19. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    Not sure about a DBA Physics, since I never went beyond Dr. Herman C. Allmaras' PSCI 111: Survey of Physics (the non-lab course for liberal arts majors) in Fall 1980 at Mesa State College in Grand Junction, Colorado. But why not a DBA in Administration of Cultural & Historical Resources?
     
  20. bing

    bing New Member

    sure. we can do a dba in physics. just call the major "applied physics".

     

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