UK or SA PHD in philosophy?

I am a new member to the forum but have been reading the threads for a while. I appreciate the feedback and comments that come from people bouncing around ideas. So...here is something I am pondering.

I am nearly finished with a PHD in theology (from a Baptist seminary), but would like to earn a second degree in philosophy, just to balance out some research interest that I have. I have been looking at the UK schools in philosophy what are all top ranked, but expensive. They are still cheaper than American schools, but South Africa has the best deals on PHD's. I have looked at the Universities of Pretoria and Stellenbosh for a PHD in philosophy.

I would like to eventually teach at a seminary or college in either theology or philosophy, or both. Would it be worth spending the extra money for the UK degree just for prestige, or would a SA degree suffice? Is there really that much difference in "prestige" between a UK university and an SA university?

Thanks for any input!

 

There are several things that you might want to consider.
1) British degrees might initially seem to be less expensive than degrees from the USA right up until they tell you that you have to spend 4 weeks per year on campus (I've made up this figure but it's not going to be far off) Then you can factor in the round-trip airfare, plus the accomodations. Is it still cheaper than a US degree? If your answer is "yes" then you've found a brand new British DL PhD program in Philosophy. Be sure to share your info.
2) Aside from UNISA, South African PhD programs are not DL programs per se. They are research oriented doctoral programs. Under certain circumstances the school may allow this research to be completed at a substantial distance from the university. You will need to court them a bit in order to gain admission under the circumstances you've described. There are no guarantees.
3) What university is granting you your PhD in Theology? I'm just curious as most people will stop there. A second PhD will not necessarily buy you a ticket to the job you're seeking. Assuming that you earn your PhD (not really in question, I'm sure) then you might want to consider putting your time and energy into creating a publications portfolio. In my own opinion, this would go further toward getting you that teaching position than a second doctoral degree.
4) Finally, and to answer your original question in a more direct manner, I believe that in general, a PhD in Philosophy from a British university would generally be considered to be more prestigious that one from a South African university. While I don't necessarily agree with this, I believe that this is the common belief. In forming my answer I took into consideration name recognition, cultural familiarity and racial prejudice. Your mileage may vary.
In any case, good luck.
Jack

 

UK or SA PHD in philosophy

PMBrooks,

For info on the SA universities CLSeibel and Bill Grover are good resources to talk to Seibel for Pretoria and Grover for UNISA. The exchange rate from the Rand to the dollar is extremely good. I have looked at some UK programs and most require a minumum of 1 month a year residency. One such that I have looked at is the University of Wales, Lampter.

I am in a similar situation that you are in. I am currently working on my M.A. in philosophy from a B&M university. After I am done I would like to do a Ph.D or Th.D from the UK or SA but I have been met with scoffing by some. I have a friend who is currently getting a ph.d from a Baptist Seminary and he pretty much has his mind made up that if do anything DE then it really doesn't mean anything (he went so far as to accuse me of trying to get out of doing work, making sacrifices, blah, blah, blah). I say this because you may get some balking from your collegues.

I hope what I say doesn't deture you away from your goals, just giving an example of my experiance. However, do keep us posted as to your progress.

 

Jawellnofine, of course South African universities are more prestigious, but the Brits charge a lot more.

 

Thanks for everyone's input so far. You all have given some good things to think about.

Jack, specifically to some of the things you said. First, my degree is from New Orleans Baptist Seminary. This is a BandM school, of course, but offers many courses online (for the master's program). I have enjoyed my experience there and have had some excellent professors. It has been challenging and enlightening.

Second, you are also correct about the costs associated with the UK degrees. You do have to factor in airfare, costs of the short residencies, etc. The cheapest one that I have found so far have been the University of Sheffield, which for "external site students" it runs about $4500 a semester. They require about 1 month or so on campus. But, they also have one of the top ranked philosophy departments in Britain, not only from the Philosophical Gourmet report, but also from the RAA government site.

However, in speaking with them, because I would already have a PHD, they said they could reduce some of the time spent on campus. In fact, in my correspondance with the University of Birmingham and Wales, they have said that same thing as well. So, it might be that I would only have to spend about 2 weeks on campus per year.

Jack, you may also be correct about spending that time to develop a theology portfolio rather than getting another PHD. Having that will certainly gain more mileage than having two degrees and very little publications. We from the "convservative" seminaries are seen as not publishing much, which I believe is changing. So, having some publications to my name will be better than having two PHD's.

Thanks!

 

It sounds like you're on the track that suits you best. Good luck in your endeavor. There's been some small discussion of the Sheffield program off and on but no one on this forum has taken that leap. Let us know how it goes.
Jack

 

Just so. Good luck to you.

 

Re: UK or SA PHD in philosophy

 

My apologies to Bill Grover.

 

Earlier in the thread, Jack mentioned that he believed there was an unfair bias in the "prestige" between SA universities and those in the UK.

To everyone, perhaps I am needing some help in getting through my head that a SA degree would be just as good as a UK degree. Can some of you list some reasons why they would be just as good. Forget the "prestige" thing. I just want to have as much an "academic" degree as a BandM school. The UK universities have the "air" of being research centers and it appears as though the SA universities do not have that. I could be wrong, and that is why I am asking.

Thanks again for your input.

 

You are in part mistaken.
At least some of the SA universities are indeed research centres: Pretoria, Stellenbosch, Wits, Cape Town, Natal. I imagine at least most of the others are as well, at least in certain fields.

As to the prestige issue--
Who has more celebrity oomph, Mrs Mountbatten-Windsor or Mr Mandela?
Who's the more winsome celebrity spouse, Mr Philip Mountbatten or the former Mrs Graca Machel?
Has King Goodwill Zwelithini a grandson who thinks dressing up as a Nazi is clever?
Which is the bigger prime-ministerial inexplicable, Mr Blair's Iraq adventure or Mr Mbeki's denial that AIDS exists?
What would you rather eat, something right from a braai or something boiled since last Thursday?
Where did Seibel, Grover, KKA, and other DI luminaries go?
Which has the more advantageous currency exchange rate for USA students (do the blerrie math)?
Which can make genuine, non-whingeing claims to multiculturalism?
Which country just weeded out some of its weaker universities through forcible merger, and which one recently boosted low-level local schools with the "university" moniker?
Which country has the better: wines, rugby, real lions, mountains, and poisonous snakes?
Haggis or biltong--you choose.

Best of luck to you (seriously) in your explorations.

 

To syndrome or not to syndrome; therein rubs the lie.

-AIDS: Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome

-Syndrome: A pattern of symptoms indicative of some disease

So what disease is indicated? Primarily malaria but the full spectrum of diseases traditional to specific areas.

In what numbers are people dying? Unknown as there is no attempt to verify the figures bandied. Can't be quite the millions claimed these many years or entire regions of Africa would be depopulated.

Why is AIDS reported? Because AIDS brings money where diseases like malaria do not. And, of course, the most effective control of malaria is DDT.

Whether or not Mbeki was technically correct, he had a chance to save many African lives but unfortunately caved to political pressures.

 

Yes, I believe that I can give you two very good reasons.
1) Go to the website of the South African university of your choice (or all of them for that matter). Go through each departments listing of their instructors and note their degrees. While this list may be dominated by other South African universities you will also see a generous helping of degrees from Britain, other European countries and Asia.
2) Do a google search on "PhD XYZ University" (South African university of your choice) and among the results that turn up will be people with Doctoral degrees from South African universities who are working all around the world, either in academia or in some other professional capacity.
If there is a prejudice I do not believe you will find it on this forum as prejudice typically withers under the lights of education and the members of this forum are particularly well educated as a rule.
Jack

 

snork

I laughed so hard I sprayed Robinson's Orange Barley Water out my nose.

 

I have also found the SA Universities to be VERY strong in both content and rigourosity. Just my opinion.

Nevertheless someone posted here a few months ago a link to a University in Bulgaria, Sofia, if I remember properly, that offered both Master´s and PhD´s in Philosophy on a distance learning basis, although one trip to Bulgaria was required. Romania and Bulgaria are about to enter the EU, so their education systems should offer no doubts either. You may use the search function of the site for details.


Regards

 

Thanks everyone for your imput. You have helped me and even, I might say convinced me.

Bulgaria.....sounds interesting!

Regards,
Page

 

I'm interested in philosophy and religion myself. But as someone who can't see any particular reason to earn one Ph.D., the idea of earning two is simply incomprehensible.

I think that I agree with Jack. The time spent on a second doctoral program might be better spent producing some original work and in generating some publications and visibility for yourself.

If you feel that your educational background is weak in philosophy, then you might consider doing additional coursework in philosophy without a degree objective.

Theology and philosophy are cognate subjects, pretty much. There's philosophical theology at your end, and there's philosophy of religion at theirs. I guess that philosophy and theology blur together in the middle, when you look at 'reformed epistemology' or things like that. (The medieval arguments about universals were as theological as they were philosophical.)

So there's no law that says that you can't do philosophy with a theology degree. That's particularly true if you emphasize philosophical problems with religious relevance.

Here's my suggestions:

1. Clarify whether you really need another doctorate in the first place.

2. Identify the broad style of philosophy you are interested in ('analytical'? 'Continental?') and identify the particular philosophical problems that interest you.

3. Try to find departments that have faculty who are producing interesting work in those areas.

4. Then look for people whose approach the the problems of interest is congruent with your own. It's not going to help your philosophical career very much if you join a department and then proceed to try to demolish the work of your supervisors.

I don't think that the nationality of your degree matters very much. I'm not even sure if the overall institutional prestige of the university itself is all that big a deal. What matters is the philosophy department itself, its orientation and its reputation in your particular research problems.

Anyone seriously considering a doctoral program in philosophy probably needs to examine the Philosophical Gourmet Report. Here's their rankings of English-language philosophy departments by specialty:

http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/breakdown.htm

Keep in mind that a department might be ranked highly in some large part because of the presence of a star professor and his acolytes. But you might not rank it as highly if you think that the professor is profoundly mistaken.

 

Oh. My. God.

And to think I've actually allowed myself to take halfway seriously -- even of only momentarily -- other things you've written around here.

This says it all. Thank you for removing yours from my list of persons whose opinions could possibly matter.

Oy.

Ooh. Ouch.

And... ick.

You name dropper, you.

It was funny, though, wasn't it! Go, janko!

Is that actually a word?

Is that actually a word? (Relax... I'm just kiddin' around. I know it's just an innocent typo.)

Bulgaria?

Boy... I'll say!

Exactly.

Is this not, at least in part, what graduate certificates are for?

That's also what I was thinking as I read the thread-starting post. It's very common to see someone with a PhD in some decidedly philosophical subject writing about a decidedly non-secular, theological subject; or a ThD writing about a decidedly secular, philosophical subject. Either degree says to the reader: "This person is no lightweight; and what s/he writes about, even if refutable, should be taken -- at least initially (and maybe far beyond) -- seriously." Having a PhD in a theological subject feels to me like the best of both worlds! I'd take a credential like that and publish my ass off -- regarding any damned thing about which I felt competent to write. But that's just me.

The whole notion that someone can't write credibly and authoritatively about a subject in which s/he might not happen to have a degree is just folly!

 

Why bother to reply when you have nothing at all to say?

 

Re: Re: UK or SA PHD in philosophy?

Try this one on for size.

1. Get yourself a professorship at your friendly neighborhood local community college and/or bible college.

2. Publish articles based on your theology dissertation.

3. Pursue your dissertation-only philosophy doc and find out if your doctoral preceptor or the university itself is okay with you publishing chapters of the dissertation before you actually submit to them the completed dissertation.

Result: you graduate with docs in two related fields that you love, you have teaching experience (possibly in both), and you have a publications resume in both fields by the time you are ready for your first tenure-track assistant professorship.