FBI Initiates New Operation: Code Name-DeMill

The Mission:

1. To boldly go where no man has gone before, to search, expose and destroy all degree mill operations.

2. To expose all persons who use degree mill degrees in their professional lives, and in so doing are guilty of fraud.

3. To invade all non-US islands in search of degree mills operating as universities.

4. To hopefully catch up with all US schools which change their physical location every two weeks, to avoid litigation over shoddy degrees.

5. To shut down all non-USDoE recognized accreditors, for using the term "accredited" to deceive the public.

DeMill is currently taking applications for their search and seek mission. If interested call 1-888-GO-GET-EM. Qualifications: A real degree.


Russell

 

While I do not agree with diploma mills, I find that there is too much bashing of what one perceives as an inferior institution. There is a difference with vehemently disagreeing and pointing out the flaws (or advantages) verses continually bashing these institutions (for fun).

If one went to a top 10 school (most of them are Ivy League), one would notice a number of people bashing lesser known and even "State" schools as "diploma mills" (to them meaning that they allow entrance and give degrees so easily compared to the more prestigious schools). I found this type of bashing very unpleasant when I was at Princeton.

Lower RA schools bashing non-RA, etc. seems to have a similar spirit--basically, wanting to re-enforce how bad they are and how one looks so much better by not being them. Kind of like the Ivy Leaguers thinking about the poor and lesser qualified college kids who often has to go to the lesser schools made for them and their "level."

Unless one is at the absolute top tier, someone higher can always look down and bash those "lower." Rather than bashing or making fun (to humiliate as opposed to casual jest), I think one should treat and discuss issues with the sensitivity that one's academic institution may possibly be in a much lower status within another context and to someone else.

EsqPhD

 

Unfortunately, Operation DeMill has already been penetrated by a highly placed Trinity C&U mole.

But I do like the part about invading small islands in search of degree mills, as I'm sure any real American would.

Perhaps they should tell the Marines to send in an expeditionary force to see what is REALLY down there in Monterrey Mexico. I bet los amigos at CEU wouldn't all be doing the macarena after THAT!

The Marines could add a chorus of "from that halls of Sheila Danzig to the shores of old St. Kitts, we blast away degreemills and we get our kicks."

 

Is this the same agent who was responsible for the TC&U alumni cruise aboard QEII that never left the dock? Well, that's not strictly true. The ship left the dock, the alumni didn't.

These have been busy weeks for Trinity. They've fled South Dakota for the BVI, but don't anyone lose sleep over the unused time left on the mailbox campus lease. It has now become the Trinity C&U online store. http://www.trinity-college.edu/store/

In addition, TC&U has rolled out a new diploma mill, adding to their growing stable. Unfortunately, Brett immediately screwed it up by using the same code on the BIU enrollment form as that used on Trinity's, but left the Trinity name on it.

Ashington, Trinity's other mill, is purportedly undergoing a change of management. In the mill business, I believe this implies a lengthening of the paper trail rather than an actual transfer of ownership. The single-page web site now lists a contact email address for "alumni" needing support, but completely fails to mention any procedure for current students. Gone are the days, I guess, when the Ashington CGI forms handler generated an email with the subject line "Order for Ash".



------------------
Bill Gossett

 

Esq:

With all the sadness/anger over the recent conspiracy to flush out scammers, I thought I would inject a little humor. It is a good medicine, you know.

But seriously, the original post was all in fun, as I thought the reader would understand. Degree mills are not in the same universe with even the lowest ranked RA school.

Russell

 

Bill,

Just ordered the nice looking Tote Bag for $40.00, so I can tote around the World Wide Telephone Directory. This way I can always be sure I will have the most current T C&U physical address---no matter where they are.

Russell

 

In part, I know it's all in fun. But really, perspectives are really different based on different backgrounds.

Prior to the recent few years, I and most of my colleagues in the professional and academic world looked at correspondence/distance learning (we lump it together and even presently, I don't see the difference in most cases) as not that much better than mid range unacredited schools (diploma mills). I'm trying to be open ever since I started a D.Min. program (with only summer residencies) at Princeton Seminary. However, as the lower RA school people bash unaccredited schools, the more I see that my colleagues weren't that much different in spirit--just a lot smarter and richer.

EsqPhD

 

Very interesting points Esq. The *Bell Curve* authors make similar assertions about the superior level of education and intellect at the Ivy League schools as compared with the state schools. I also remember a Baptist Chaplain with a Th.D. (patristics) saying that he had heard that the Assemblies of God Seminary was a diploma mill. Of course it is not and has all required accreditation. It does however demonstrate your point about others making assertions with regard to schools.

North

 

It is true that a certain amount of academic arrogance exists at all levels of academe. However, to automatically equate distance learning with degree mills, especially with the advancements of the past 6-7 years, isn't even logical. With over 200 RA schools now offering degrees via DL, and numerous others offering courses via the same, it would appear that DL is being absorbed within traditional academia as a valid method of learning.

Russell

 

I certainly don't agree with the Assemblies of God seminary (they only have one as I recall--somewhere in Missouri I believe and the rest Bible Colleges) being diploma mills--at least I hope not. I have some good friends who are great Assemblies of God ministers. However, for a long time, especially in through the late 80's, most of the mainline denominations and even Baptists (or should I say especially Baptists) thought of AG (Pentecostal) people and their schools as quackery--regardless if they had some sort of AABC, RA, or ATS level accreditation.

You picked up on my point well in that it doesn't feel very good to be characterized at the other end of the spectrum--and I guess we all (unless we're at the top) can be "bashed" that way by others. Good example was the AG/Pentecostal people for a long time.

EsqPhD

 

I don't understand what you are talking about.

I think that this group is generally quite good at NOT doing what you charge us with. Most of us don't seem to be overly obsessed with the "tier" system. We like things like credit by examination. We are willing to defend places like Phoenix. We don't dismiss DETC, though we point out that an RA degree may have more utility in some cases. I've even made several posts on the CA-approved sector in which I had good things to say as well as bad.

So what's your beef, Rev. Dr. Ph.D? That we denounce non-accredited "universities" that move from state to state, operating from a succession of mail forwarding services?

If you believe that we are mistaken on ANY issue of substance, please be specific and tell us exactly why you think so.

You are mistaken. When you and your Princeton friends sneer at people like me, it is to EXCLUDE me from your charmed circle. I am just not made of the right stuff.

But when I suggest to someone that they avoid a non-accredited and unrecognized 'university' and instead choose a program with more legitimacy and recognition, I am not suggesting that they are inferior to me in any way. My whole answer is predicated on the assumption that they are my equals. I'm just suggesting that they may have a superior option that they should consider.

Are you arguing that because some snobs in the ivy league sneer at the rest of us, that means that the rest of us should embrace non-accredited universities with open arms? That doesn't make any sense.

 

You misread what I wrote. I was focussing on the making fun of or bashing of unaccredited institutions in general. Obviously I disagree with diploma mills--especially the ones that move from State to State, changing every few months, etc.

I will ignore the rest of your comments...not really worth my response.

EsqPhD

 

My initial post was not intended to make fun of "unaccredited institutions in general," but was in reference to degree mills. As stated earlier, there is a vast difference between a substantive unaccredited school and a degree mill.

Russell

 

So are you stating you intended to make fun of only degree mills?

One interpretation of degree mills includes many unaccredited institutions giving out degrees with substandard prerequisites. I don't include all unacredited institutions (I understand you may also agree with this) because some, though unaccredited, may have adequate standards--but just chose not to be unaccredited.

Another interpretation of a degree mill (as held by some in the upper eschelon) ALSO includes some RA and lower RA, AABC, ATS, lower foreign schools (whatever they may be) giving out degrees with substandard prerequisites when compared with THEIR upper end institutions.

You may have only intended to make jest of the first example of degree mills of unaccredited institutions with substandard prerequisites--I can understand that.

What I was merely pointing out is that if you go to a lower RA school, an upper eschelon top tier school person may--from his/her world view (not necessarily mine!)--view your institution as a degree mill.

Because of this, I intended to convey that you and I probably would not like it too much if we were the butt of jesting--REGARDLESS if we think our RA level is not so bad. We seem to be more focussed on RA in here whereas in the top tier world and institutions, that is so given that it really is a non issue--what is at issue is the type of ranking of the institution. From there they compare themselves with the "rest." The rest, especially lower RA schools, could be easily perceived by some as diploma mills (easy entrance and degree granting institutions) and become the butt of jokes (whether justifiable or not) like how some in here view unaccredited diploma mills. I know you think there is a huge difference--I agree--but that's our opinion and not theirs. And in my secular environment, there are lots of those people.

You do have the right to make fun--it is your constitutional right of free speech--as long as it doesn't harass, threaten, or incite violence. I was just expressing my opinion and imagining myself in the shoes of a forum member who may have a degree from a "degree mill." I just thought that this person or these people would probably not receive the jest very well--just like the State school people who may not take a casual jest by Ivy Leaguers that the State schools are "substandard" or "diploma mills." So as you have the right to make fun (and I know that you probably meant no ill will), others, with different backgrounds and views, may one day make fun of your institutions and/or academic background.

My point is that whether one's institution or degree is of a lower standard in other people's views--REGARDLESS if this is true or not--it usually doesn't feel too good to be at the butt of the joke.

Normally, I would really laugh and probably be tempted to join in your jest--but somehow, being in this particular forum reminded me of the similarities between the institutions you (and normally, even me) make jest of--and how in my other world, some I know make fun of the many institutions that several people in here attend. When I thought of that, I was just a bit more sensitive to being the butt of the joke--in here, it's the really bad unaccredited diploma mills--in other places like my secular environment, the view of diploma mills can extend to institutions that many of my forum friends attend.

I regret that I can't laugh with you (even though I want to) because when I begin to picture us laughing at these diploma mill people, I get a mental image of these other secular acquaintances of mine laughing at some of my friends in here.

EsqPhD

 

I think the difference is this:

One can't help but laugh at, for example, at Monticello University, a diploma mill which, until HI and KS officials busted it, claimed to be a legal unaccredited school.

The school was operated out of the back of an insurance agency, had absolutely no faculty whatsoever, a colorful and probably mentally imbalanced "President", and a convoluted scheme by which they claimed that the school and all scholastic activities were in Hawaii, though all correspondence, phones, faculty, etc. were in Kansas.

There were definitely students that enrolled there and believed they were getting a legitimate education. I feel very sorry for those students. And I don't think that the participants here woould laugh at them... they got duped. Instead, we would try to help them understand that they were wasting their time, and how to refocus their efforts toward a legitimate degree, and take whatever work they had done and convert it, as much as possible, into legitiamte credits.

Now, if the person spent a lot of time attempting to justify their worthless degree in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, as Kennard Brown and several others have done, then it's difficult *not* to point out the lunacy of their arguments. But at that point, it's not academic snobbery, it's simply engaging in debate.

The sad truth is, a large majority of unaccredited DL schools are bogus/fraudulent/worthless/ diploma mill operations. By that, I mean schools operating out of MBE boxes, changing addresses as state laws change, having no discernable faculty members, providing no meaningful or worthwhile education, and granting "degrees" that will eventually cause trouble for the unfortunate victims of the scam.

And the legal but unwonderful schools (and I think a majority, but not all, of California-approved schools fit into this category) may offer degrees that won't "explode", but will also often not fit the future needs of their graduates. And the schools, with rare exceptions, conveniently fail to mention this to their students.

So, again, it's not so much about knocking the individual who holds the substandard credential, but shooting down the usually thin arguments defending the programs, so that others don't get similarly deceived into choosing substandard programs.

 

But for an Ivy Leaguer to think RA State schools are somehow "degree mills" is more a matter of academic snobbery/arrogance, than an opinion based upon fact. IMO, even the lowest ranking RA school in the nation is an Ivy League school when compared with a degree mill.

Russell

 

Probably true in most cases (though some RA schools I would question). However, I do want to point out that a good number of Ivy Leaguers are just like you and me, just ordinary people trying to earn a living.

EsqPhD

 

One thing that everyone learns growing up is that somebody will always be looking down at you. There's always going to be somebody richer or more famous than you are. Or if there isn't, people will resent you for your wealth and fame. So the attitude you are describing is inherent in the human condition.

What's more important is whether the opinions are justified. Do you believe that your colleagues' opinions of distance education are justified? If so, why? Can a strong case be made against distance education? If not, why should we be concerned with your anonymous colleagues' prejudices?

Intelligence is something you have to demonstrate. You can't just claim it on the basis of the school you went to or the letters after your name.

This returns us to the point I made earlier that you evaded. You are trying to make an inappropriate analogy.

As you yourself put it: Kind of like the Ivy Leaguers thinking about the poor and lesser qualified college kids who often has to go to the lesser schools made for them and their "level." The insult here is directed at the students themselves. The inferior schools only exist to serve the inferior students at "their level". The whole motivation is to accentuate the difference between superior ivy league students and the rest of the herd.

But when this group has a little fun at the degree mills' expense, something very different is happening. The humor is directed at the schools and not at their students. There has never been any suggestion on this group that there is an inferior "level" of student that degree mills exist to serve. We have no respect for the ethics of people that knowingly choose to buy a fake "degree", but implicit in that disrespect is the assumption that they could do the work to earn a legitimate degree if they were willing to exert the effort. And we have nothing but sympathy for those that are duped. There is nothing more tragic than somebody who writes a real doctoral dissertation for a degree mill. He or she will probably never repeat that tremendous effort at a real school. So their education is terminated and they live their life embittered and estranged from the education they once loved.

Ultimately, all of this is a red herring. If our low opinion of degree mills is justified, then it doesn't really matter what the ivy league thinks of us. And if our opinion of degree mills is simply unfounded prejudice, then it doesn't really matter what the ivy league thinks of us. So, it really doesn't matter what the ivy league thinks of us. Our opinion of degree mills stands or falls on its own merits.

 

Thanks for the gentler comments this time. I will attempt to answer these very legitimate comments. I don't know if you will agree with it though. However, please give me a day since I have a project to complete first.

EsqPhD