More info on NCU's DBA

I spoke to someone at NCU and was told they are still working out the details of the DBA. She thinks the only difference is the Stats class and the DBA may not have an oral defense- they are still not sure.

The PhD disertation is expected to be more research based and the DBA more applied. I asked if you could take all the same classes and complete the same disertation for either and she said YES, you would decide to defend it (PhD) or not (DBA).

As far as the admission reqirements of Admission to the Doctorate programs requires a bachelor’s degree, or equivalent, from an accredited or approved institution.
She said they will accept some DETC schools and some California State approved schools. You may be accepted on a conditional basis but tis is great news for many.

 

Thanks for the news. I also spoke yesterday with Susan at NCU and it also was re-iterated to me that the DBA and Phd are almost identical with the difference in the oral defense and like you said, DBA is more practical rather than research based in a sense.
I made comment that I was rather suprised in regards to the minimal difference in the requirements for the DBA ad Phd.

I guess I see the DBA to be more of a corporate type ( extended MBA ) degree and the Phd to be above a DBA in more than just a oral defense. In other words, I would seek to say that a DBA in my opinion would not necessarily need a dissertation, but more of a doctoral project. DOing a dissertation, in my eyes, would be a research degree, and in doing so, why would one not want the more distiguishable Phd behind them as a credential.

Heriot Watt has a DBA that is research based. I tell you this, if I completed the required DBA thesis on their requirements, I would call myself a Phd, because that is exactly what it is in terms of the course curriculum and requirements. Viva voce ( oral defense )

RANDELL - How do you like NCU thus far? How are the course requirements and in what format is the coursework evaluated?

Do you have essay formats to answer or evaluate your understanding of the material, study guides.
Basically, as a CCU graduate, is it presented or similar to CCU's study guides or layout format?

Please let me know. I am interested in NCU. Just not quite willing to pony up the dough just yet.

 

I don't understand why the dissertation defense makes a difference, except for this statement:

"Although a D.B.A. dissertation is required to address a practical problem of an organization, it is not required to produce an original contribution to the body of knowledge in Business Administration. An oral defense of the D.B.A. dissertation is not required."

It sounds like the dissertation will require a level of work comparable to the Ph.D. dissertation, but will not be required to have an impact on the body of knowledge farther than its impact on the organization in question. It doesn't have to advance the body of knowledge.

This has practical uses, of course, because the doctoral candidate can focus on a narrow problem whose solution doesn't have to be transferrable to other organizations, while still demonstrating his/her capabilities to do work at the doctoral level.

I guess a defense isn't necessary since that person isn't having a new piece of knowledge vetted and approved for entry into the canon.

What is lost is an opportunity for a practitioner to contribute to the field of knowledge and advance it.

The other main difference is that doctoral students don't have to take an Applied Stats course. In fact, I suspect NCU expects most candidates to do qualitative, problem-solving studies where statistics would be a tool, not the basis for the new knowledge. (DBA students still have to take a graduate-level stats course, but if you did it in your master's program, that'll do.) There are several dissertation prep courses the candidate must complete:

RSH8951-DBA - Research Questions, Constructs and Design
RSH8952-DBA - Measurement of Constructs and Concept Paper
RSH8953-DBA - Design, Statistics, and Data Analysis
RSH8954-DBA - Research Ethics and Proposal
CMP8091DBA - Doctoral Comprehensive Review

It isn't clear if any of these are waived if one has done them at the graduate level.

The program requires 81 s.h., 30 of which can be transferred in from a relevant master's. 12 s.h. of dissertation prep, followed by 9 s.h. for the dissertation itself, leaves 30 s.h. for non-dissertation coursework. In the HRM concentration, for example, 5 courses are taken in business-related subjects, 5 more from a menu of HRM courses.

Courses are completely self-paced and individual. You can begin courses at the beginning of any month, and have a maximum of 16 weeks to complete them. If you finish sooner, you can start a new course, but only at the beginning of the month. So taking 9 weeks to complete a course means actually taking 12. Most students take 2 courses at a time, and finish their degrees (including dissertations) in 3-4 years. It is conceivable, however, to do it sooner. If one took 2 courses every 2 months, one would finish his/her courses in about a year and a half. But the dissertation proposal would be done by that time, and (conceivably) one would be a long way to finishing the dissertation itself.

Given a tuition rate of $475 per s.h., a master's-qualified applicant would pay about $26,000 (including fees). But that would not include books, and unlike Touro, this isn't an online program. Independent study certainly means books, and books add up fast. Expect several thousand on top of that. But no travel, no scheduled classes, and an ability to go as fast as one is prepared to all combine to make this an interesting proposition.

 

First...everything that Rich said.
The courses are as follows: You get a sylabus with the course requirements. The class I am in now for example, MGT5016 Managing Change, requires four papers and a final paper. The four papers must be at least 10 pages each and the final is at least 15 pages.

There are two books to read. Dance of Change and Managing Transition. I paid about $50 for BOTH books.

The last class I took, MGT5005 Management Finance and Control, was six (I think) assignments that averaged 15 questions each. A 10-15 page final was also due.

I cannot compare it to the CCU of today becasue it has changed so much. When I got my CCU degree, it was either 100 or 200 question multiple choice. I spoke to a friend that completed his BS just before I did and now he started on his MB from CCu last month. He said it is completely different; much harder.

Hope this helps.

 

So, in other words, there is alot of writing involved? Are the questions you are referring to multiple choice type or essay questions, with a 10-15 page paper at the end?

Do you submit tests or questions throughout each course, or turn all of it in at the end?

I am still slightly confused on the true differences in the DBA vs. Phd. I understand the oral defense as a difference. Is it clear that the DBA is more of a applied research " project type dissertation " that can relate to a internal problem and solution within a work organization ."

 

Some might say this would be disingenuous.

It would be better to just say one has a doctorate in bussiness admin.

 

Well, I wouldn't. I completed a doctoral degree that had the same course work (including quantitative and qualitative research design and multiple statistics courses) and original research dissertation requirements (including the oral defense) as a Ph.D. in education; however, my school awards the doctor of education, not the doctor of philosophy degree.

I would not list myself as "Ph.D." in any publication, as that is not the name of the degree that I was awarded. Now, if colleges of education did something similar to what law schools did years ago (i.e. "all of the LL.B. degrees that have been awarded are retroactively changed to J.D.s"), I would probably take them up on the offer to swap the Ed.D. for the Ph.D.

Tony Piña, Ed.D.

 

They did something similar to this in California with physicians.

The College of Osteopathic Physicians and Surgeons, in Los Angeles, was converted to an allopathic(MD) medical school. With approval from the school, the Osteopathic Medical Association and the California Medical Association, and on receipt of $65 per applicant, they gave about 2500 unearned MD's to osteopaths. The offer was also open to all the DO's in the U.S.

 

No multiple choice; all essay questions. Four "questions" that require a 10 page respones each, that are turened in as the course goes on, plus a 15 page final.
From MGT5016 -

RECOMMENDED SCHEDULE FOR COURSE COMPLETION:
Assignment 1 Weeks 1 - 4. Read the entire Textbook 2 to understand change better and get some practical ideas for the management of change in the assignments within Textbook 1.

Skim over the entire Textbook 1 understand how it is written. Then read the section “Getting Started”, pages 3-64 closely. At this point you need to pick a current company that has enough public information you can do research on it. At the present time Enron could be a good choice for your “change company”. You are going to use this company to demonstrate an understanding of the change process for each section of the textbook. Using your selected company, your first assignment is to tell your professor how you would apply the “Getting Started” materials to the beginning of change for your company. Submit this assignment for grading. Point value 100 points.

Assignment 2 Weeks 4 - 8. Read the section in your textbook “The Challenges of Initiating”, pages 67-237. Using your selected company tell your professor how you will apply this material to continue the change process at your company. Submit this assignment to your professor for grading. Point value 100 points. At this time you need to submit your final paper topic for approval.

Assignment 3 Weeks 9 -12. Read the section in your textbook “The Challenges of Sustaining Transformation”, pages 241-357. Using your selected company tell your professor how you will apply this material to continue the change process at your company. Submit this assignment to your professor for grading. Point value 100 points.

Assignment 4 Weeks 13-16. Read the section in your textbook “The Challenges of Redesigning and Rethinking”, pages 361-551. Using your selected company tell your professor how you will apply this material to continue the change process at your company. Submit this assignment to your professor for grading. Point value 100 points.

There is a final paper for the course. The paper should be written on some aspect of change the Learner would like to know more about or the paper could be on the selection of another company the Learner leads through a change process. Consider yourself the CEO if you are writing about another company. The normal length of this paper is 15 pages, excluding references, title page and table of contents. The value of the final paper is 200 points.

 

Randell,

thank you so much for responding to my questions. I can now put the requirements and expectations of the course into more perspective. Sounds like it will occupy your time quite a bit.

Again, thank you for sharing with me your experience.

Jonathan

 

DBA vs PHD

Seems like that Russell Crowe move about John Nash, PhD would provide an example of the difference. Nash is a theorist. Theorists develop relationships that may be generalized, yet seek to explain/model behavior at a very basis (abstracted) level. Much later, Nash Equilibrium was developed from Nash's contributions to game theory, and as a result, Nash was awarded the Nobel Prize in economics. Nash's PhD is in mathematics, not economics. Yet, someone applied his general theory to develop a useful/practical application in a different field.

The DBA is about taking the work of others and applying these works to solve practical problems where the rubber hits the road. The PhD, in its formal sense, is about developing theory at a more abstract, generalized level that actually advances knowledge, yet they don't often actually develop applications.

The DBA dissertation is designed to apply research techniques to actual business problems and the outcome is the solution to a real, practical business problem. A DBA worries about solving specific problems in their organization where as a PhD would question whether the circumstances that allowed this problem to occur need to exist in the first place.

A number of schools, like Nova Southeastern for example, have a DBA because that's their market - executives that want to advance their skills. Also, a PhD program requires enormous investment in faculty, because the emphasis is theoretical, which largely negates the ability to use so many applied folks who can come in from real world jobs and teach. In a very broad sense, the overpopulation of doctoral students generally in the US will, I believe, propel the DBA to further heights. It's simply more salable as a product and can be used to make lots of cash in the private sector. There is no shortage of PhD's who seek academic jobs for very low salaries in the US, hence more interest in keeping the degree production up by universities broadening their product lines to include the DBA.


Just some thoughts. I'm kicking the idea around of doing the DBA rather than the PhD at NCU myself.

 

One more idea

I notice that NCU's "Doctoral Coursework" for the new DBA have designators of "DBA" (DBA) rather than "B" (PhD) after the course numbers. My guess is that the methods sequence will be restructured for the DBA, perhaps with less quantitative rigor, as perhaps implied by the deletion of the foundation stats course.

If this is true, then I'd think students would need to make the degree program selection much sooner, rather than simply deciding whether to defend or not as a determinate of which degree is awarded. Given NCU has both degrees; they will have to differentiate the programs effectively, or simply cannibalize one from the other.

 

Re: DBA vs PHD

Messagewriter - What you've said is fine - in theory. But when it comes to the DL doctoral business market the definitions are a lot fuzzier. Many Nova DBA grads, for example, teach. And many PhD grads from the for-profit schools are in industry. The quant track at Nova, unlike the DBA you speak of here, is fairly significant and Nova disserations require empirical tests of hypotheses. As for developing original theory - I suspect none of the DL programs really does this. It would seem to be an Alice in Wonderland sort of world.

As for PhD programs requiring a big faculty investment - they should. However, the for-profits employ lowly paid adjuncts. The only DL programs I know that employe significant full-time faculty are Nova Southeastern and Touro.

Regards - Andy

 

I'm also considering the DBA program at NCU. I like the fact that NCU offers several sepecializtions for their DBA program. The Homeland Security - DBA specialization is of interest to me.

I work in law enforcement and have had many different ideas as to how to further my education beyond my MBA/Public Administration degree. I've though about doing a Executive J.D. to a Ph.D.

In reading these posts I'm leaning more towards the DBA. It appears the DBA is a complement to the MBA or any Master's degree for that matter. My interest lies soley with furthering my business background and skills and really don't have plans to teach at a university. It seems the DBA is geared more toward executive type positions, although you don't see a lot of executives with the DBA.

I've learned and continue to learn an imense amount of information regarding law in my chosen carrer path. I don't think I could swallow law school for 3-4 years.

As stated in previous threads, Columbia Southern University is in the development stages of a DBA through the DETC. I would love to complete my MBA with CSU, but I need to diversify my institutions that I attend. This is not only self advice, but advice from CSU Administration.

On a side note, I'm proud to say I walked with my graduating class of 2005 for my MBA degree in Orange Beach, Alabama. I was a keynote speaker for the graduating class and I was elected to be the CSU Alumni Association President. Stay tuned at the CSU Alumni website (linked with CSU's main site) for updates and website enhancements.

 

Andy's post

I agree with your post. I've been in a PhD program in economics at a B & M school, and a year of calculus and linear algebra set the bare minimum floor on where one needed to be to survive. Most had more math than that and needed to use it every day. We'd bang out regressions by hand with linear algebra and use calculus in the stats courses regularly. Nova is the closest thing to the rigor of a traditional B & M progam out there and I've said that many times, but I suspect it is extremely applied as well - as it shoudl be. If I had the time and wanted a DBA and knowing my qualifications, Boston University has a sweet little program. http://management.bu.edu/gpo/

Following are recent faculty placements of School of Management, Boston University DBA students:

Arizona State University
Bentley College
Boston College
College of the Holy Cross
IESE, University of Navarra, Spain
London Business School, United Kingdom
National Chengchi University, Taiwan
Northwestern University
Ohio State University
Rochester Institute of Technology
University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign
University of Maryland
University of Massachusetts, Boston
University of Minnesota
University of New Hampshire, Manchester
University of Texas at Austin
University of Virginia
Worcester Polytechnic Institute

Clearly, your point that DBAs have traction in the academy is well taken. Because DL education is what it is at this point in its development cycle, I don't think even a PhD could possibly have the quantitative rigor of a B & M program. In that sense, it is hard to see how such an appied focus in NCU's PhD coming right out of the box would allow a significant separation from their new DBA program. I guess that the DBA will be even more applied (less mathematical rigor), which is fine. For me, I may hang with the PhD because the math is already minimal in the PhD content. The only thing is whether the "committee" will allow me to do the applied research for my dissertation. If I can't get that past them, since I have some specific needs, then I might drop down to the DBA.