Which Law School

Hello All,

After talking with a good friend of mine, I'm thinking about pursuing a law degree in lieu of a Ph.D or DBA. The reasons for this is due in part of my career in law enforcement and wanting to go back to corporate security after I retire.

So, I'm asking your advice about online J.D and/or Executive J.D. I'm leaning more towards that EJD because I have no desire to become an attorney.

I know there is William Howard Taft Law School and Concord. Are there any others out there? Between the two mentioned, which would you recommend. Taft is about $3000-$4000 less per year, but Concord seems to be better organized.

 

There is also Oak Brook College of Law & Government Policy, which I believe is less expensive than both Taft & Concord, while having a higher Bar pass rate. I know your goal isn't to be a lawyer, but a high Bar pass rate is a pretty good indicator of instructional quality.

Oak Brook seems to have a conservative religious stance, which might or might not be a problem, depending on your personal views.

 

I have fulminated all over this forum against the so-called executive" or non-Bar "J.D." degree so I will spare the community any repetition here. If you really want to see an old lawyer foam at the mouth in print, run a search.

If you are really set on spending the time, money, and effort necessary to earn one of these...these...these THINGS, and the idea of earning a law degree that really IS a law degree doesn't appeal to you, I recommend that you restrict your seach to DETC accredited schools, which means Taft www.taftu.edu or Concord www.concordlawcenter.com

The one thing that can give credibility to an unaccredited law degree is Bar membership. A so-called non-Bar J.D. degree, without more education or experience, will not qualify the holder to take any Bar exam in this country. Hence the importance of DETC accreditation.

This is a shame because I have a soft spot in my heart for Northwestern California University College of Law but they aren't accredited so I really cannot recommend their non Bar program. If you want to see what their program looks like, go to www.nwculaw.edu

 

Jamie

If you have no desire to become a practicing attorney then why don't you earn a law degree from a school in the UK or Australia? You will end up spending a lot less cash and have a fully accredited law degree from a well respected B&M school. Plus if one day you decide that you do want to practice law you can take the NY or Massachusetts bar exam.

Bo

 

There are some caveats to bo79's advice:

A D/L degree from an Australian or U.K. school will NOT by itself qualify the holder to take any Bar exam in the United States.

It is true that N.Y. will accept an LL.B. from a U.K. school but their regs specifically EXCLUDE "external" degrees. I haven't looked at Mass. but I'd be VERY surprised to learn anything different from what I've said here.

Second, even if you don't care to become a lawyer, you should consider CAREFULLY whether you want to obtain your first law degree in a foreign country. Law is not like, say, medicine or engineering.

There's a lot of overlap between the legal systems of all common law countries, to be sure, but there's a LOT that is unique to U.S. law and much of that unique material is fundamental. For an American needing a basic legal education, an American degree is to be preferred.

Re: Taft vs. Concord: This is another source of fulmination. If you want to know why I think Taft is a wiser choice, do a search. Note, however, that both schools are DETC and completely legitimate.

 

I just looked it up.

Mass. requires non attorney applicants to hold an ABA J.D. plus an accredited bachelor's degree plus (believe it or not) a high school diploma.

Exceptions to the J.D. requirement are two:

-instate non ABA Mass. law schools operating under Commonwealth authority (there are presently two); and

-graduation from foreign institutions with programs "substantially equivalent" in the opinion of the Board of Bar Examiners to ABA programs. Translation: three years in residence will almost certainly be required. D/L will likely not be acceptable.

 

This is probably the best advice monet can't buy. Plus some degrees from London schools, like the LLB from The University of London, are prestigious enough that you may be able to land a teaching position.

 

Law Degree?

Jamie:

If you're going to pursue a law degree and use it to enhance your career in the U.S. then perhaps it might be a good idea to attend a local ABA approved law school at night or on a part-time basis. That way...you'd at least have a ABA-accredited law degree. If you're going to spend the money on a law degree then get something that's recognized by the ABA. Getting support while "learning the law" is crucial. Learning the law by DL is a challenging undertaking. Unless you're going to work internationally...I'd suggest that you look at a U.S. law school.

If you're really bent on a DL, non-bar program then Howard Taft or Concord gets my vote. At least they are DETC-accredited.

Lastly, you could always do a PhD or DBA in a legal area. Just a thought.

 

Why do I like NWCU's Bar qualifying J.D.

Let me start by saying that I have never studied at NWCU, have never taught for them, and am not currently considering their S.J.D. (for which I've accumulated several topics )

I have had exactly ONE contact with the school when I e mailed them to ask how to prepare the S.J.D. thesis proposal that is supposed to be part of the application. The response I received was prompt, polite, helpful and accurate. I was impressed.

But much more impressive to me are: their 30 odd years of operation, the fact that NWCU grads routinely pass the FYLEX and California Bar, and the fact that their tuition, whilst not the cheapest, is pretty low for the more prominent California D/L law schools.

OakBrook has several of the same advantages coupled with an astonishing (but recently declining) Bar pass rate. OakBrook, however, has several features that would keep me from considering them; they are a very conservative Christian school, their religious opinions appear to permeate their program, (includingtheir admissions decisions) and they have mandatory religious training seminars. If these things are not a problem for you, then OakBrook should definitely be on your list.

 

Re: Law Degree?

I second this idea. There are so many part-time law programs, many of them filled with cops and social workers who work full-time, that the networking opportunities alone are worth as much as the accreditation. Moreover, many state schools with attractive tuition have part-time programs as well.

 

As opposed to many on this board, I am big on Concord. Not necessarily from a "bargain" standpoint but for the quality of the program. Closest thing you'll get to actually being in a real law school other than actually going to one. You won't get a reading list and a box of cassettes-- you actually get taught the law by a faculty that rivals any "real" law school. If your desire is to actually learn the law via DL without the pressures of taking the bar or ever practicing law, there you go. But even with Concord, I'd go with the regular JD route-- at least it leaves your options open.

That said, the utility of a EJD will really vary by your career path. Even with one, say, as an adjunct to a PhD in another field, will always place you in a secondary seat to a "real" JD with a bar membership, even if that "real" JD is, say, a forensic psychiatrist who never practiced law but just picked up the JD to enhance his career. Just the way it goes. Not to say you won't have earning potential, it will just be in a different league than those with JD/PhD's from "name" brick and mortar schools, and let's face it-- there's plenty of them out there scrapping for work.

You want the real bang for your buck-- find a state school, with an evening program, pay resident fees, and have the best of all worlds at minimal cost. In California, it's insanely cheap to go to a state school compared to any private option-- brick and mortar or DL. Yes, you might have to cut back on your day job to study, but nothing worthwile comes without cost. You either want it or not.

 

se94583,

I can't really disagree with your post. Concord has been gradually improving its Bar pass rates and the school DOES seem to lay more stress on lectures from experienced law school profs than the others seem to do. I say, "seem" because I have no experience of any California D/L law program.

I also agree STRONGLY with your advice to seek the Bar qualifying degree.

But Concord IS expensive as such things go. Total tuition for four years is about $33,000 which is on a par with some CalBar accredited resident schools and significantly more than the other D/L schools. Taft, also DETC accredited, gets about $20,000 for its Bar qualifying J.D., for instance.

On the other hand, California private ABA schools get $90-$110,000 and the UC system law schools get about $62,000 total for residents.

I admit that I have been no fan of Concord for various reasons but I don't think jagmct1 would be making any kind of mistake by enrolling there.

 

"Shoebox full of tapes"

One of the things I DON'T like about the University of London is that they DON'T provide a shoebox full of tapes. Lectures really WORK for me; I don't know why. I guess Concord offers an online shoebox full of videotapes...I don't think the video part would help me much more than the audio alone.

But ohhh how I wish I had those audio tapes!

 

Like I keep saying...

Do keep in mind, if you decide to pursue a D/L J.D., that the Bar qualifying degree is an ENORMOUS undertaking, much more daunting, I think, than any resident J.D. program, ABA or CalBar.

The rules make it clear; the D/L student must actually LOG 864 hours of law study during each of four years. That's 2-1/2 hours a day year 'round. The resident student at a CalBar or ABA school completes six ordinary full time semesters or eight ordinary part time semesters. Vacations and all!

 

Re: Like I keep saying...

Nosborne:

I highly respect and value your advise. I really, really wish I could attend an evening Calbar program. San Joaquin College of Law is the closest school to me. However, I would have to drive a 180 miles round trip daily (4x a week) to attend school. I don't think the drive is "doable" or reasonable. I'm afraid I will drop becuase of the drive. Moving is not possible at this time nor in the forseeable future.

Therefore, I have to attempt to do D/L law. Either Northwestern or Taft. I have narrowed my list to those two schools. I know I'm in for a long haul and have accepted the fact that I may not be successful but I have to try.

 

Jay,

Well, just remember two things:

-If you pass the FYLEX and decide to change to a resident school, you will likely receive credit for the work you've done; and


-Hundreds of D/L students HAVE succeeded. It's going to be hard but it CAN be done!

Go for it and good luck!

 

Hi nosborne48,

Are you saying that if a person attends a CA DL law school and passes the FYLSX, he can transfer his first year credits to a ABA law school?

 

Sorry; I spoke too broadly.

I would be very surprised if any ABA approved school would give credit toward its J.D. for work done in a non ABA school, especially if the work was via D/L.

However, the rules governing CalBar accreditation DO allow advanced standing for someone with a successful FYLEX. I can't see why they wouldn't do it.