ODA unfair to 3 medical schools?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by laferney, Jun 17, 2005.

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  1. laferney

    laferney Active Member

    Why are these medical schools in the caribbean on the Oregon Unaccredited degree list and considered illegal?
    1.College of Medical & Health Sciences St. Lucia
    2.Medical University of the Americas St Kitts/Nevis
    3.St. Lucia College of Medicine St. Lucia

    when the following aren't?
    1. All Saints University of Medicine Aruba
    2. American University of Antigua School of Medicine
    3. American University of the Caribbean St. Maartan
    4.Burnett International Medical School Haiti
    5. Central American Health Sciences University Belize
    6. Grace Unversity Medical School Belize
    7. International American University St. Lucia
    8. International University of Health Sciences St. Kitts/NEVIS
    9. Medical university of the Americas Belize
    10. Ross University Shool of Medicine Dominica
    11. Saba University Medical School SABA
    12. Spartan Health Sciences University st. Lucia
    13. St. Eustasius Medical School St. Eustasias
    14. St. James Medical School Bonaire
    15. St. Matthews University Medical School Cayman islands
    16. St, Martinus Medical School Curao
    17.UNIBE Medical School Dominican Republic
    18.Xavier Medical School Bonaire
    19. Windsor University medical School

    If you look at the programs it would appear that the 3 above are equal in status, faculty, and courework as the other 19 given that almost all are set up for foreign students? (USA) Why are some from St. Kitts/Nevis not on the unauthorized list but the Medical University of the Americas is? Do you really believe degree oversight is really better in Haiti or Belize than would be for St. Kitts/Nevis?
    I think Oregon should remove the 3 above form the list-They have Drs. practicing here in the USA in many states. The MUA has graduates in medical residencies in Michigan even though the School is on their list of unauthorized degrees! If they are able to pass the rigourous tests and requirements to practice here then surely the school is worthy.
     
  2. Delta

    Delta Active Member

    I agree!

    I agree that ODA is biased!

    Medical University of America has M.D. graduates licensed and practicing in the USA.

    Perhaps it doesn't have to do with the M.D. credential/degree but with the other degrees some of these schools offer, ie: B.S., BSN, Ph.D, etc.???

    On the other hand, who wants to live and work in Oregon anyway!
     
  3. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Re: I agree!

    I would.

    I'm no fan of the ODA, nor its list. But Portland would be nice....
     
  4. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    Re: Re: I agree!

    Live in Vancouver, WA, where Potland, OR, is just over the state line.
     
  5. laferney

    laferney Active Member

    I don't think it has anything to do with the other programs. The PHD in Health Sciences requires a dissertation (as done in Europe, So. Africa etc) and the MSN requires a thesis. The BSN in Massachusetts is acceptable to the State Board of Education for certification as a school nurse. (BSN is required for certification)So while not accepted in Oregon it has some value in Massachusetts.
    Should the fact that it's graduates are acceptable in other states matter to Oregon? I know the Oregon lists only pertains to that state but the influence is vast. I'm not knocking the ODA. I think their list is innovative and a great resource as evidenced by it's use on this site. But it doesn't seem to be logical in this case given that nurses and MDs are practicing with their degrees in other states.
     
  6. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    Speaking only for myself, I wouldn't go to a physician that graduated from any of the schools in the first post.

    Massachusetts is kind enough to provide a searchable database of physician profiles, so you can see where they went to medical school, did their residency, etc.
     
  7. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    The Oregon statutes state that degrees granted by any higher education institution that isn't accredited by a US Dept. of Education recognized accreditor or by the foreign equivalent, can't legally be used in Oregon.

    Non-accredited schools and their graduates do have the option of asking the ODA for approval. Those Oregon standards are apparently more superficial than accreditation would be, and aren't particularly difficult to meet.

    Probably because the three you named were brought to the ODA's attention. I'd guess that most of the others that you listed aren't legal in Oregon either.

    The reason why so many questionable off-shore medical schools operate on small islands is because most of those islands don't have what Americans would recognize as credible accreditation systems. Nevertheless, their government approvals can get the schools into the WHO listings and make their graduates eligible for the US medical licensing exams.
    Then lobby the Oregon state legislature to repeal the legislation.

    If you don't like the Oregon laws and if you don't live in Oregon, then you could just ignore the whole thing.

    Maybe, maybe not.

    I can imagine somebody teaching him or herself medicine by reading medical textbooks and perhaps by working as some kind of physician's assistant. Suppose that self-taught individual succeeded in passing the foreign medical graduate's exam.

    Would that success justify our adopting the general principle that people without formal medical educations should be accepted as the equivalent of M.D.s?
     
  8. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Neither would I. At least not as a matter of choice. If it were a life-or-death emergency I might accept treatment by one, just as I would accept treatment by a paramedic.

    I've only been treated by two physicians since I've been alert to this stuff. One volunteered that he went to UC Davis. The other had his UCLA diploma on his office wall. So no worries so far. But if somebody went to some offshore medical school, I'd seriously consider asking my HMO (Kaiser Permanente) for another physician. (They are pretty good about that, I understand.)
     
  9. Arch23

    Arch23 New Member

    Re: Re: ODA unfair to 3 medical schools?

    <Maybe, maybe not.

    I can imagine somebody teaching him or herself medicine by reading medical textbooks and perhaps by working as some kind of physician's assistant. Suppose that self-taught individual succeeded in passing the foreign medical graduate's exam.

    Would that success justify our adopting the general principle that people without formal medical educations should be accepted as the equivalent of M.D.s? [/B][/QUOTE]>


    If part of the requirements of the state, in addition to passing the state exam/s, is formal education in medicine, and if the school has consistently produced graduates meeting such rigorous requirements of the state to qualify for practice, then the school deserves a serious look. I think lumping everyone under a cloud of mass suspicion as degree mills when there's no factual basis for doing so is just plain wrong. But then again, there could have been specific cases in the past involving these schools that we're not aware of that perhaps forced ODA to put them on the list?
     
  10. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    I've said several times that perhaps the most valuable thing I got out of the Bear's/Bears' Guide series was the habit of checking the credentials of professionals. I never knew about fake or substandard medical schools before that.

    When my wife was pregnant with our twins, we were looking for a pediatrician, and my wife picked a woman whose office was close to our house, she was affiliated with the hospitals we wanted, etc. I did some checking, and found that she was a graduate of a Caribbean medical school, so I crossed her off the list. We eventually settled on someone who graduated from the University of Pittsburgh Medical School.

    Incidentally, my wife belongs to a group for mothers of multiples, and has heard several horror stories from other mothers about the first pediatrician we excluded.
     
  11. laferney

    laferney Active Member

    You probably have in the past or will go to a physician from an offshore medical school given shortage in some medical specialties. This debate about the "skill level"of these foreign or "offshore graduates" has been discussed on these posts many
    times. Most are graduates of colleges of universities in the USA who didn't get into medical school here due to limited space or some other reason that probably had nothin to do with their ability. It takes alot of motivation to go to another country to study medicine.
    As for other points one could dabate whether MUA is recognized by St. Kitts /Nevis. Oregon says no -others say yes.
    http://www.stkittsnevis.net/accreditation.html
    Oregon denies that listing in the WHO directory or being eliglble to take the means anything. Yet these ared the requreiments to practice medicine here for all foreign grads and these schools meet them. MUA has contacted and is working on being removed from the Oregon list.
    Its true if you don't live in Oregon and I don't I could ignore it but the Oregon influence is wide. Rich Douglas just posted an article about Alaska using the Oregon list. What if it comes to your state. Would you want Oregon dictatng what is legal in your state or would you like more debate? so their influence cannot be ignored.
    As for not going to a Doctor from these schools all I can say is everyone here can pick your own MD (untill your HMO tells you you can't!) As somone who works with physicians I can only say I don't see any difference in the quality of any of the physicans that graduated here or in foreign (including carribean ) programs.
    and as the old joke goes _" What do you call the guy or gal who finishes last in his medical school class?" Answer: Doctor.
     
  12. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    First, the schools in question are not "considered illegal" in Oregon. They are considered unaccredited and unapproved. Their degrees can still be legally advertised in Oregon "provided that the user discloses on all resumes, letterhead, business cards or web sites that the degree is unaccredited and unapproved by ODA".

    Second, graduates of the schools in question can still apply for medical licenses in Oregon. It's ultimately up to the Oregon Board of Medical Examiners to determine whether or not they should be issued medical licenses, not the Office of Degree Authorization. ODA is primarily concerned with academic degrees (e.g. MS, PhD) which may also be issued by the schools in question.

    Finally, the Oregon ODA list does not pretend to be complete: "This is by no means an exhaustive list of institutions whose degrees cannot be used in Oregon. It is a list of those most recently reported." So it's quite possible that other Caribbean medical schools are unapproved in Oregon as well.
     
  13. laferney

    laferney Active Member

    Yes the list may not be complete -however being named to the list certainly prejudices against these programs. In law one is considered competent until declared incompetent. ODA essentially is declaring these 3 incompetent while the others remain "competent." Not being on the list is certainly more desirable than being on it.
    I like the ODA list. I just feel in this area it is unfair. Either they all should be on the list or none should. If they are listed in the WHO and can take the United States Medical Licensing Examination then they can become a licensed physician in the USA. As far as bringing this to the attention of ODA it is already an issue. Mr. Contraras indicated in a past thread there was a process in Oregon being considered to make the medical programs under the authority of the Oregon medical licensing board rather than ODA. Don't know the status of this but assume not in place as these schools are still on the list.
     
  14. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    I spent some time on valuemd.com discussion board. Isn't MUA concidered one of the "better" Carribean schools? No Harvard, but a real school nevertheless?
     
  15. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    California list

    The California Medical Board also has a list of recognized medical schools.
    Only a few of the Caribbean schools in laferney's list are on it. Ross U and Saba U made it.
     
  16. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    In regards to the original question; could it be that some graduates of the three medical schools listed have requested a review of their degree (a process allowed/encouraged by the ODA) and, as a result of that review, their degree has been assessed as being acceptable? Following the same line of reasoning, the other medical schools on the list have not had graduates request such a review. Because of this, these schools remain in limbo until such time as a graduate of one of the other listed schools seeks the use of their degree in Oregon. This is the Oregon process, no? An unaccredited school remains on the "tarnished" list until a graduate makes a formal request for evaluation and then, if the degree passes muster, it moves to the polished list. This is nothing new. Please don't make more of this than it really deserves. Please tell me if I'm wrong as I do not wish to spread bad information.
    Jack
     
  17. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    There are many "real" medical schools in the Caribbean. The reason they locate there is not (as Bill would have it) to avoid accreditation, but because the schools are proprietary and those jurisdictions are tax free. I met many medical students at Ross when I lived in Dominica, and those people study a heck of a lot harder than I ever have.

    -=Steve=-
     
  18. bing

    bing New Member

    Thing about foreign medical schools. You can be WHO listed and still be under par. The point of going foreign, for a U.S. student, is to take the USMLE I exam and pass it. Once you do, you can start rotations generally. You can go foreign, to a crappy school even, and study your brains out. Likely, you will pass the USMLE and still obtain clinical rotations.

    You still generally need greenbook rotations to get into a residency. States have their own criteria. You can get into a residency, say in the state of New York, but then New York might not allow you to obtain an unlimited license to practice after graduation.

    Going foriegn, and in the islands, puts you in almost the same boat as one going to a top school in England. The leveler is still the USMLE 1 exam. Many island students have to obtain their onw rotations here...and move around maybe after each rotation. Sometimes a school is stronger, like Ross, SGU, or AUC, and can get rotations setup for you. Saba is one that seems to be doing a decent job. Sometimes, obtainins a residency is a function of how well they liked you in a rotation.

    I've seen people go to the islands with a 2.5 gpa. They generally don't make it because if you didn't get good grades in college how will you ever pass the USMLE? A few people did surprise me, though. Some people have gone to the Caribbean because they could not get in here with even a 3.6 gpa believe it or not. It's extremely competitive. They might get into a DO school but they would rather have the MD behind their name than DO.

    Some foreign schools just can't cut it. Case and point is Kigezi(Kizegi?). They were in "England" but one day they just shut their doors leaving the students in a world of hurt. I heard one graduate of the school, in a residency here, was having to pay someone to keep the admin open so that he could get transcripts when needed.
     
  19. deanhughson

    deanhughson New Member

    what is unfair about quality control?

    College of St. Lucia

    http://www.itgworld.com/MP_MD/

    is run by Dr. harrington, who got in trouble previously with running an illegal medical school in Oregon

    http://www.doj.state.or.us/releases/rel072500.htm

    His present school gives 'equivalent' recognition of chiropractic,dental,podiatry degrees and then allows his 'students' to stay at home and attend medical school through the internet. That isn't done in the US.

    the other schools may have problems with Oregon because they don't respond to letters...imagine if you got your MD degree from them and couldn't get them to answer state boards. That is what happens.

    read www.valuemd.com for more info.
     
  20. laferney

    laferney Active Member

    After reading about Dr. Harrington's past "adventures" I can agree this school is suspect and would agree it should be listed. Thank you for this info. I know the MUA through it's attorney has contacted ODA and are working to be removed form the list . Mr. Contreras mentioned it on another post.
     

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