Would anyone have information about a school called ACCUS Theological Institute, sponsored by the "American Catholic Church in the U.S."? This denomination is independent Catholic, that is, non-Rome oriented. Their website says the school is tuition free and uses distance learning. I have had a strong interest in theology for many years, my previous career (B.C.= before children!), was as a psychotherapist, master's degree level, so I have lots of experience in the helping role already and am considering or thinking about transitioning to ministry or pastoral counselling, which would require some further training in theology. Their website says the school is unaccredited, but then I guess a lot of theology schools are, and does it matter since you generally work for those in that particular denomination? I have been exploring through reading various denominations before, this seems to be a good fit for me from the description. Any info or words of advice for me? I would apprecaite it. Thanks. Oh, by the way, their website is:americancatholicchurchus.org with link to the school.
Hi Marisa, Many branches of Catholicism exist. Quite a number were begun by one or two people who wanted a more liberal faith. Sometimes these organizations are nothing more than mail order ministries or offshoots with some whacked out theology. This appears to be one of those as the real American Catholic Church, begun in 1989 as a reaction to the Second Vatican Council, is headquarted in New York and this church is in California. If you really want to study theology, let me suggest you look into a number of schools accredited by the various theological accrediting agencies, to wit: 1. www.ats.edu 2. www.tracs.org And you might want to really check out http://www.sats.edu.za Blessings,
Welcome aboard, Marisa. Use the search function for "episcopus vagans", "episcopi vagantes", or "Old Catholics." Many links and some semi-brilliant observations. Dr Clifton's advice is good, too.
Yeah... sure... if the search function were working right! I've reported it, but... well... grrrrr. Anyway... Marisa, trust me when I tell you that Janko, as a legitimate, ordained Lutheran pastor who has bothered to research the phenomena, is a real expert on this particular area of the ecclesiastical (or, perhaps more accurately, "pseudo-ecclesiastical") universe. His point, if he will permit me to make it (which I wouldn't normally do except that the search function which he recommended you use is functional but crippled at the moment), is that there are a whole bunch -- and I mean a bunch -- of so-called Catholic and Episcopalian/Anglican spin-off churches and para-church organizations out there which may or may not actually have any kind of valid apostolic succession (most, I dare say, don't... hence the "episcopus vagans" thing to which Janko referred); which, in many cases, consists of just one or maybe two people who, as Janko humorously (and, in many cases, correctly) points out, simply, like to get all dressed-up in priest's vestments with staffs and tall hats... perhaps even as part of some sort of weird fetish, for all anyone knows; and that many of them have so-called "seminiaries" that are little more than a few men and/or women (who may or may not even have accredited or by any measure "credible" theological degrees) assigning some reading and requiring a few papers and which, at best, prepare the vocational candidate for ordination in their particular church, but certainly no other; and, moreover, that said seminaries are not only not accredited by any agency approved by the US Department of Education (USDE) and/or its Council for Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA), but most of them don't even hold up as "unaccredited, but still legitimate." And, actually, from its web site, as you gave it to us in your thread-starting post, that funky, illegitimate feeling comes over me. In fact, when you said "ACCUS" and its "Theological Insitute," I was surprised to see that particular web site linked-to because, until you provided that link, as I was reading your thread-starting post, I thought you were talking about these guys. If so, then of the "Catholic" bodies which specifically do not affiliate with Rome, the ACCUS is probably one of the less wacky (and tacky); and is more likely to be legitimate than most others like it. It is far more than just a couple-o-guys who like to dress-up; and it's got several locations around the U.S. -- many of them, no doubt, mere Sunday morning meetings in homes or hotel meeting spaces... which is, I should add, how many large and respectable churches get started, so I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with that. Whether its Theological Institute is legitimate in any measurable and/or observable way is unknown... as is the case with many (maybe even most) unaccredited seminaries. That's the whole problem with unaccredited institutions... as has been argued about, back and forth, in these forums over and over and over again. But I digress (as usual). Jimmy's advice that you try and keep your theological education accredited by a USDE- and/or CHEA-approved accreditor (like TRACS or ATS, for example... or, as in the case of SATS, by the South African equivalent thereof) is good. Just know that TRACS is the lesser-known accreditor; and that degrees from its institutions are not anywhere near as well-regarded among church bodies and theological colleges, universities, schools of divinity, schools of theology, and seminaries as are degrees from ATS-accredited institutions. Moreover, TRACS, itself, is a decidedly more theologically (and, I dare say, politically and morally) conservative accreditor, so -- at the risk of being taken to task for saying so (which I will, no doubt, be) -- it institutions are more likely to be of the fundamentalist, bible-thumping variety. ATS has accredited institutions that fall within that category, too... but at least it also accredits the institutions of all the mainstream, more liberal denominations as well. SATS, too, is on the conservative, bible-thumping side... but, weirdly, somehow more tolerably... at least in my opinion... though it's difficult for me to articulate precisely why. If you're convinced that you want to be a member of ACCUS and that there's no chance you'll want to use whatever credential you may obtain from its Theological Institute anywhere else, then what the heck. Many churches -- and I mean perfectly respectable and sometimes even large churches and/or church bodies -- have unaccredited seminaries offering church-approved credentials where those wishing to be ministers, pastors and/or priests therein may obtain whatever education said church will accept as prerequisite to ordination. As long as a person stickes with said church for as long as they want to wear said credentials; and never wears said credentials outside of said church, they'll never have a problem in life. And even if they do wear them outside of said church, they'll likely only get static from purists (such as are found around here), or from states that take a dim view of degrees that are not accredited by USDE- and/or CHEA-approved agencies, or which are not investigated and determined to be "unaccredited, but still legitimate" by said state -- such as Oregon, for example. If you can, get an ATS-accredited degree, that would be better. If you can only get a TRACS-accredited degree, that's not quite as good, but still much better than unaccredited. That said, if unaccredited is okay with you, but you'd still like the degree to have the kind of credibility that you seek; and since you already have a masters, perhaps one of the Graduate Theological Foundation's doctoral degrees. GTF has taken alot of flack around here -- and some of it deserved -- so proceed cautiously. But I'm finding, from my research, that GTF is more credible, despite its being unaccredited, than many around here realize; and if the search function were working right I could give you a link to a thread here where I listed many names of GTF graduates with very impressive positions in academia, the secular professional world, and even as a Bishop of one of the 65 synods of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). GTF, despite its unaccredited status, requires that all coursework applied to any of its degrees be regionally-accredited. I don't know if nationally-accredited coursework will also do... though I suspect that, on a case-by-case basis, and with the blessing of the GTF advisor, it might. But my point is that, as I showed in that other thread (which the broken search function won't let me find), many regionally- and ATS-accredited institutions apparently accept GTF degrees as requisite to faculty positions and advanced degrees... probably, in largest measure, because it requires fully-accredited coursework. So, in that sense, it's quite credible... even though unaccredited. Perhaps one of GTF's degrees would do it for you... perhaps the Doctor of Ministry (DMin) in Spiritual Counseling or the Doctor of Psychology (PsyD). (Actually, the latter, given the requirements of the former, might be a better fit for you). Hope that helps.
Thanks to all, and another question... Thanks to each of you who replied. Lots of food for thought, and a huge research task for me ahead. I like the idea of accreditation too, but can one get a theology degree or eventually ordination from their denomination, by means of "Distance Degree" ( mostly) from the TRACS/ATS accredited schools. That's an issue for me due to family and money considerations. I'd like to do the academic part by distance. Of course, some denominations might not even require a master's but some equivalent theological training that they supervise. I definitely do not want any more psychology degrees, being disillusioned with that field ( another story, I'm too bright for my field but not conceited at all!). So are any of the accredited theological programs distance, or am I deluding myself by thinking I have to be there all the time to make it worthwhile and legitimate? I'll do the research myself to find the denom/church closest to my set of beliefs right now, so what I am asking for is feedback on which "accredited" schools are distance based. MY worst fear is that I'll find a denomination/church I like, and they will have no schools or local churches near me, due to smallness or relative newness ( solid, earnest, and growing!). Why, oh why are we all doomed to repeat adolescence again, or kindergarten ? LOL Oh, I forgot the best part, and the real kicker, I would have to find a denom/school that "permits" ha ha, ordination of women, because I hold that out as an option in the very long term. After a couple decades counselling people in a secular way, I'm done done done with secular! BTW, I started counselling people as a child LOL.
Re: Thanks to all, and another question... ATS-accredited institutions usually only allow a minority portion of the degree to be via distance learning; requiring you to come to the campus for the rest of your coursework... sometimes as full-time study for a year, and sometimes as intensives that last a week or two or three and which allow you to knock out maybe 6 to perhaps even 9 hours at a time, per intensive. Just depends on the school. Unless you're taking a course that it would simply defy logic to take via distance learning (such as learning to be a chiropractor, for example), there's simply no reason to believe that you could not and/or would not get just as much from the distance learning version of virtually any course. In fact, most in the know will tell you that the distance learning version of virtually any course is more difficult because the student must do more reading and must be more self-disciplined. So, in my opinion, yes, you're deluding yourself if you believe that you can't do it all via distance learning. ATS, obviously, disagrees... but I consider them neo-luddites. What you haven't told us, here, is whether your religious beliefs or underpinnings or whatever you want to call them tend toward the more conservative, fundamentalist -- maybe even (and I know people hate it when I use this term) bible-thumping -- sort of denominations; or whether they tend toward the more liberal, sometimes larger, mainstream, denominations. I ask, in part, because, as I mentioned earlier, if you choose a school with TRACS accreditation it will certainly be of the more conservative, fundamentalist variety -- some of which do not permit the ordination of women. You also haven't told us precisely what degree you have in mind. It sounds like you want to be ordained... which will almost certainly require that you obtain a Master of Divinity (MDiv). If so, I'm here to tell you that none of the ATS-accredited MDiv programs will let you complete said MDiv completely via distance education. There are, on the other hand, some TRACS-accredited MDiv programs that can be obtained completely via distance learning... or at least one that I can think of off the top of my head... and that's Beacon University's MDiv program. But Beacon, you should be warned, is one of those really conservative schools that I was talking about. I can't remember if the TRACS-accredited Luther Rice Seminary's MDiv can be obtained completely via distance learning but, if not, it's pretty darned close. That said, note that in that program, women MDiv candidates are discouraged from taking the "Ministerial Duties" course... ostensibly, because no woman MDiv graduate from Luther Rice should, as far as that seminary is concerned, ever figure on being ordained. So, see what I mean about TRACS-accredited institutions probably being a bit too conservative? My advice is to stay away from them, but that's just me. Maybe you're comfortable with ultra-conservative, fundamentalist Christianity. I'm not, as most around here know all too well. You could also pursue an MA in Pastoral Counseling... but it sounds like you've got the counseling thing down from your former, secular life; and, therefore, are looking for the theology. So maybe a Master of Arts in Theology is what you want. There are a number of both of those masters degrees out there -- many of them regionally-accredited, and and also 100% (or nearly so) via distance learning. But, alas, that probably wouldn't get you ordained in most denominations. There is one rather excellent and relatively new degree out there that I just thought of, and that you might like. It's fully regionally-accredited, and is available fully via distance learning; and, what the heck, at least some denominations might (and I stress the word "might") consider it adequate for ordination -- especially into a specialized ministry of primarily pastoral counseling. In fact, certainly, coupled with your secular masters in social work or family therapy or whatever it's in, it would make you attractive as a pastoral counselor in a specialized (maybe even ordained) ministry in at least some denominations. It's the Indiana Wesleyan University Master of Arts in Ministry degree, and I've always been pretty impressed with it. It's Wesleyan, so there's also a conservative thing going on there, but not in the same way as that which typically characterizes the TRACS-accredited, more fundamentalist schools. But, all that said, it's still no MDiv... which is typically the key to the ordination kingdom in most denominations. In fact, if you want to be a pastor or minister in pretty much any of the mainstream denominations (Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopalion, United Church of Christ, etc.), you're probably looking at having to get an MDiv, plain and simple. Some of the smaller, more conservative denominations that value a good, old-fashioned country preacher -- almost no matter what his qualifications -- might be happy with a mere Bachelors in Theology or Divinity or something; and maybe wouldn't even require an MDiv. It just depends. But some of those may not want to ordain women, either... so everything's a trade-off. The United Methodist Church prefers an MDiv, too... but has been known, on occasion, to ordain the holder of a degree such as the aforementioned Indiana Wesleyan MA in Ministry. That would be an uphill battle, mind you, but it has been done... many times, actually; and would certainly introduce you to UMC polity in a big hurry! St. Joesph's College of Maine used to have a pretty slick MA that could be steered into an MA in Pastoral Theology. But I notice that it's suddenly no longer on its web site, and my... lemmee think... I think three emails to them asking where it went have gone, curiously, unanswered. You might want to call them and ask what's up (like I've been meaning to do). It's worthy of note, however, that even the folks at St. Joseph's described the degree as not so much the sort of thing that an ordained minister/paster/priest would ever get and, instead, was more along the lines of something that a lay minister of some kind might pursue. Still, it had a nice title, for your purposes, didn't it? (Of course, one should never go by that. Jimmy's suggestion that you get an Master of Theology (MTh) from SATS might actually be a better idea for you than I first thought. It's quite good, from what everyone says... and cheap (as in "inexpensive"). There's no doubt in my mind that you'd get the basic theology there that you're looking for. I'm trying to remember if I read somewhere that SATS was kind of charismatic... perhaps someone can chime-in on that one. If it is, that can be kind of an acquired taste that you'll probably want to first make sure you'll either like or can at least tolerate. And University of South Africa (UNISA) has a heck of a nice MTh, too -- especially the "structured" one... which is what you'd be needing. It, too, is inexpensive and of high-quality. Plus, no one in the US need assess it for US-accredited equivalence since it's nationally accredited by DETC, which is USDE- and CHEA-approved. But -- and this is important -- even those aren't anywhere near the same as getting the all-important MDiv! Without that, ordination is going to be a tough one -- at least in any denomination that I'm guessing you could tolerate. More in my next post (which may or may not be the next post)...
Re: Thanks to all, and another question... Continuing what I was writing in my previous post... There is an interesting MDiv program that might be right up your alley -- especially if the more conservative theology (inerrant bible and all that kinda' stuff) is not offensive to you. I hesitate to suggest it because it's only a candidate, at this point, for regional accreditation; and it's got a bit of a bad reputation around here for some of its past shenanigans. Janko makes the most compelling argument against it... one that is rife with good logic and should, therefore, be heeded -- that is, if he'll honor us with a brief summary thereof, herein. If he does, then please really give what he writes some serious consideration; but then stop to consider that notwithstanding their past indiscretions, they've nevertheless managed to clean-up their act sufficiently to earn "candidate" status from a regional accreditor; and many here believe that it's a certainty that they will, in time, finally become fully regionally-accredited. I tend to believe that regional accreditation trumps a checkered past, but I, personally, still take Janko's opinion of this place that I'm about to suggest to you very, very seriously. The institution I'm talking about is -- brace yourself, everyone -- Trinity College of the Bible and Theological Seminary (yes, "Trinity Newburgh," as everyone around here refers to it... and usually pejoratively). Yes... I know, I know... but hear me out: I'm no huge fan of this place, but bygod that regional-accreditation that's almost certainly headed Trinity's way is nothing at which to sneeze. I think everyone here -- even Trinity's detractors -- has to agree that that will have alot of past-infraction-trumping power. If they get it (and everyone seems to think they will), they will be offering one of the most valuable fully-distance-learing MDivs out there. Yes, ATS accreditation is the imprimatur that that any self-respecting MDiv should have... but, of course, none of them may be obtained completely via distance learning. And TRACS-accredited MDivs, though some can be obtained completely via distance learning, usually aren't taken very seriously by any of the mainstream denominations. But a regionally-accredited MDiv. Hmmm. That's got a powerful endorsement behind it. Even those at ATS can't argue with the rigor and credibility of a regionally-accredited degree. And some might argue that, by being regionally-accredited, Trinity's MDiv might have a higher academic value than an ATS(only)-accredited MDiv. Of course an MDiv that's both ATS and regionally-accredited -- which many (maybe even most) of them are, by the way -- would pretty much be the best of both worlds. But because any of them that are ATS accredited can't be obtained fully via distance learning; and because those that can be obtained fully by distance learning are approved by the lesser accreditor TRACS; suddenly Trinity's regionally-accredited, fully-distance-learning MDiv starts being attractive. That is, again, if one can stomach the conservatism, and biblical inerrancy, etc. I couldn't. But if you, Marisa, can... well, then... Trinity's MDiv may be right up your alley... ...especially when you consider that it offers an MDiv concentration in "Biblical Counseling," which seems to be, from what you wrote, precisely how you want to use the degree! The problem is that Trinity isn't really any particular denomination's seminary. So, many denominations might not accept it; or might accept it only if you went and spent a residential year at their particular seminary so you can fully grasp (and, more likely, prove that you'll fully buy-in to, and espouse) their distinctives and polity, etc. Trinity also isn't regionally-accredited yet. So, the RA benefit that I've described above doesn't yet exist at Trinity. But you might want to call Trinity and find out when they think it will happen; and if it's likely that it will happen before you finish your MDiv there, then you'll graduate with a regionally-accredited MDiv, even if it happens only a week before you finish your last course there. But it's a risk to count on that, so proceed with caution. Trinity, also, is not terribly expensive... another attractive thing about it. Before I close, I want to address this, because it concerns me. I know I'm treading into dangerous waters, here, but it always concerns me when anyone professes the superiority of Chrisitan/Biblical counseling over the secular, licensed variety in all cases. Your statement seems to have a frighteningly blanket feel to it. You seem to be saying that you wish to foresake everything you've learned (and practiced) of licensed counseling in the secular world, and try to tackle all those same problems purely from a biblical perspective. Maybe I'm reading too much into it... and if I am, then I apologize. But there are only so many kinds of personal, family, professional or whatever other kind of psychological problems that Christian/Biblical counseling either can or should resolve. Some things simply shouldn't be handled that way. Some Christian/Biblical counseling clients/patients (or whatever you want to call them) should be referred to the licensed professionals. It's funny that this is coming up right now. Last night's PBS program Religion and Ethics Newsweekly did its cover story on this very issue. Before anyone starts making the case that Christian/Biblical counseling should always be enough, s/he should first read this program transcript; and then do alot of soul-searching. Just my opinion.
Dear Gregg, I've been interested to hear from a number of posters about the American stress on the MDiv as the only credential for ordination. You mentioned that some of the smaller denominations might be happy with a "mere bachelors in Theology or Divinity." I always thought that the point of the MDiv is that it is the BD for someone who already has a degree in another discipline? In the UK and Ireland it is possible (in certain occasional circumstances) to be ordained in most mainstream denominations with only a Diploma in Theology, or a non-degree course. The standard course in most theological colleges leads to a BTh, BA or BD (depending on the affiliated university), so most ordinands end up with 2 bachelors degrees. The Presbyterians in Ireland have recently (in the last 5 years) introduced an MDiv so that their students could get funding from the government - they could not get funding for a second bachelors, but they possibly could for a first masters! I think both SATS and UNISA require a BTh (or equivalent undergraduate theology degree) before beginning the MTh. The MTh is solely a postgraduate research degree for those with relevant theological training. Regards, P
What about FLET MA degrees? What about the MA (as well as BA) programs from the Facultad Latinoamericana de Estudios Teologicos http://www.flet.edu/, which has the accredited programs in English as well as Spanish? Jimmy Clifton has a "in progress" notice in one of these programs in his "signature"; perhaps he can give an idea of how this program is. Matt F
You are correct about the American MDiv. Up to the 1960s, it used to be the BD and, then as now, it required a bachelor's degree for admission. Correct me if I am mistaken, but isn't it the case that the British system (by which I would include Britain, Australia, India, Ireland, New Zealand, South Africa) BDs and BThs can be done straight out of high school? He might have meant an American-style BA in Biblical Studies, which is sufficient for, e.g., the Christian & Missionary Alliance. And, of course, in some denominations, all that need be done is to follow an existing pastor's order: "Pick up your Bible and preach!"
Dear Theodore, Many thanks for that clarification, I didn't realise that the BD was a postgraduate degree in the US prior to the MDiv. In the British system there are three sorts of BD: The primary degree (straight out of high school) - QUB, London etc. The postgraduate, for non-theological graduates - St Andrews. The advanced postgraduate degree (above PhD standard, or at the same level) for those with at least a BA in theology, or an undergraduate BD - TCD, Oxford, Cambridge. The BTh falls into two categories: The "academic" degree, usually a first degree - QUB The "professional" degree, for ordination training. Also a primary degree, but the majority of candidates would have a degree in another subject - TCD, many theological colleges. Total confusion? In QUB a BD = BTh + Greek & Hebrew. In TCD a BTh is only a "pass" level degree, a BD is comparable to a PhD. Regards, P
Peter and Ted, Good posts! Goofing around with professional degrees is a decidedly US sort of thing, isn't it. Withness the JD, when the rest of the world is perfectly satisfied with having its lawyers earn an LLB. Think, for a moment, about the arrogance of the ABA's not only declaring that a bachelors-level degree wasn't good enough, but that even a masters level degree wasn't either; and then just skipping straight to a degree which contains the word "doctor." Oy. Of course pretty much everyone sees through it and agrees that "doctor" or no "doctor," the "Juris Doctor" is equivalent to a rigorous masters degree; and that it's appropriate that the next level higher degree -- the LLM -- has the word "masters" in it. But I digress. I know tons of US pastors/ministers who just sort of roll their eyes at the ceiling when this subject gets broached because they believe that, like the LLB for lawyers, a BD for pastors/ministers -- like it was back in the '60s and earlier -- is pretty much what it should still be. It's not that they don't believe in taking it further (to an MTh, perhaps; and then even to a DMin) if desired. They're just saying that, like back in the '60s and earlier, a BD should probably be enough for one to be ordained. Look closely -- and I mean really closely -- at this unusual bachelors degree and tell me that, by hook or by crook, it doesn't contain pretty much every practical thing that one needs in order to be ordained. Oh, sure, it should probably be bolstered by a 27- to 36-hour master of arts in theology (or, better yet, a bona fide MTh or ThM) for it (combined with said masters) to really and truly be MDiv-equivalent; and it's clearly lacking in biblical languages... ...but I'll be danged if it's not about as close to the absolute essentials of a US MDiv as any US undergraduate degree of its type that I've ever seen. And that's by no accident, I should point out. The chaplain of that institution -- an ordained Methodist minister with whom I've had some good conversation -- realized that there were many ministers in small, rural churches in his community who had, for whatever reason, managed to become ministers without anywhere near enough of a formal education to do so... not even a bachelors degree, in most cases. And, after talking to them, he realized that most, if not all, of them simply couldn't afford either the money or the time to leave their congregations and go out and get the proper (read: a BA or BS and then an MDiv) credentials. So, in a moment of true inspiration, in my opinion, he designed the program to be precisely what it appears to be: An almost MDiv of sorts -- something not all that different in many ways from what was taught back in the '60s and earlier when there was no MDiv, and the BD was the standard credential that got one ordained. Of course, in a perfect world, it's not quite enough. Even this program's creator admits that it's lacking in a thing or two here or a thing or two there; and that a masters on top of it would probably be required for it to really and truly be MDiv equivalent. But he wanted to equip the graduates of his program with at least the bare minimum of MDiv-like education that he felt they needed in order to be effective, competent and responsible full-time pasters/ministers in their respective congregations. And, even better, it's available either completely via residency in a brick & mortar environment, or completely via distance learning, or any combination thereof that the student wishes; and it's regionally-accredited, to boot! Ever since I first discovered it (a couple years ago), I've loved this little bachelors degree; and I'm fairly convinced that it, plus just the right 30-something-hour theological masters, would be considered "MDiv-equivalent" by most seminary and/or denominational officials. I could be wrong, but I'm thinkin' maybe. But, notwithstanding the foregoing, and like it or not, the "MDiv" remains the key to the ordination kingdom in most US denominations. That said, the reader should realize that the British system, for example, that Peter talks about in this thread is sufficiently different from the US system that one must be very careful about considering a UK BD as being "lower" than a US MDiv. Peter was right to sort of call me on my use of the word "mere" in my earlier post -- at least when it comes to ordination credentials issued in his part of the world.
Re: What about FLET MA degrees? I'm always interested in hearing from Jimmy how that's going, too. But isn't the English version of that program still experimental? In fact, isn't Jimmy sort of the test case, at the moment? If so, then the English version may not be available to everyone yet. But, again, perhaps Jimmy can clarify this for us here.
Dear Gregg, You wrote: "But he wanted to equip the graduates of his program with at least the bare minimum of MDiv-like education that he felt they needed in order to be effective, competent and responsible full-time pasters/ministers in their respective congregations." I can't help myself, I'm going to play devil's advocate: I think this statement is a load of rubbish!! In the real world of pastoral ministry, an MDiv means nothing. When you are sitting in ICU with a person who is dying, and their family, nobody is going to ask if you have an MDiv or a ThM etc., neither are the family to whom you are ministering. They will, however, very quickly discern if you are a good pastor or not. My rector (remember I'm only an humble curate) has "only" a GOE - General Ordination Exam - a non-degree course for non-graduates. He is rector of the biggest church in the diocese (over 2,000 parishioners on the register), and one of the most effective pastors in the diocese, and not even a sniff of a BA let alone an MDiv. I suppose what I'm saying is that an MDiv, or a BD, or a PhD can't make a good pastor. They can certainly help in the teaching theological reflection and various other important skills, but they cannot be a gaurentee of them. There are many clergy with great degrees in this diocese who are pretty lousy pastors. I honestly do think that we get too hung up on degrees for ministry. (This coming from someone who has an MPhil and is planning a doctorate... as I said, I'm at least partially playing devil's advocate) Regards, P
Thanks for replies re: theology degrees I appreciate the time and care it took to formulate all the replies, and the discussion thread has been very helpful to me. I plan to spend some time thinking through the whole matter, and then I'll post again in the future with what I've decided, schoolwise.
Re: Rubbish! Thankgod... 'cause dem's fightin' words! [kidding] If you note the quote by Machiavelli in my signature, you'll realize that we're not all that far apart on that a pastor is not made good solely by his/her degree; that it's possible for a pastor to be good with little or no formal education; and that it's possible for a well-educated pastor to verily suck. That's possible, I dare say, in virtually any profession. Exceptional people -- both exceptionally good or bad at whatever they do, and with no education -- are everywhere. Nothing about that reality, however, changes what I wrote with which you've, as advocatus diaboli, taken issue... to wit: "But he wanted to equip the graduates of his program with at least the bare minimum of MDiv-like education that he felt they needed in order to be effective, competent and responsible full-time pasters/ministers in their respective congregations." Whether an MDiv or a BD or a BTh or an MTh or a ThM makes or breaks a "good" pastor has nothing to do with what he (the guy who developed the bachelors program I was talking about) wanted to accomplish by creating that program; or either that, or by how much, he felt it would help those with no bachelors degree at all to become "effective, competent and responsible full-time pastors in their respective congregations." What you're arguing is that a man or woman can be an excellent minister/pastor/preacher without any formal theological education whatsoever. Abraham Lincoln certainly proved that a man could be a top-flight lawyer by the same method, so why should being a preacher be any different. And, certainly, there are many smaller denominations in the U.S. that buy-in to that and routinely ordain into ministry many good and God-fearing folks whose only theological reading has been the Bible itself. And why not, after all? I mean, don't even the big, mainstream denominations refer to the bible as: "...the sole rule and norm for Christian doctrine." or something thereabouts? So it makes sense that some denominations think that that's quite enough. I think history has shown that the Bible is often not quite enough, however. Let us not forget that the advent of Martin Luther's Small Catechism in 1529 resulted in largest measure from his frustration with those who could not seem to get it right, even though they were armed with his 1522 translation of the New Testament into language which they could finally read and easily understand. Luther wrote much about the value of education throughout his life, as I'm sure you know... including in his letter "To the Councilmen of All Cities in Germany That They Establish and Maintain Christian Schools" in 1524, and in his "Sermon on Keeping Children in School" some six years later, in 1530, just to name two better known places... but there were many others. He was convinced -- and rightly so, I would add -- that knowledge of the liberal arts, including history, languages, philosophy, and a vast array of secular and non-secular subject areas provided the best possible context for the effective and revealing study of Scripture; and he believed that ministers, theologians, teachers and scholars educated in this manner would better know God and his work in this world by means of such learning... and would, therefore, best serve the church. Of course he believed that such learning was as much for all members of Christ's body as it was for them; that there was much to be learned from both the temporal and spiritual realms; that the use of humanist methods, values and learning "in the service" of Christianity was a good and valuable thing; and he was a proponent (without, sadly, being too terribly specific as to precise methodology) of all manner of liberal secular and non-secular education for all believers. Moreover, Luther leveraged his arguments for a proper education as tools to both make his larger points and respond to his critics. In fact, Luther's advocacy of the study of the history, culture and literature of antiquity was a direct response to those who, mistakenly, wished to abandon all formal learning on the grounds that it was irrelevant to the study of Scripture. Spiritualists of the time believed in direct revelations from God and placed little value on the temporal, earthly realm; but Luther responded by demonstrating the value of education as an essential tool for understanding God's work in this world. Waldensians argued that biblical languages, and Latin, were needless for the proper understanding of Scripture; but Luther argued back that being formally educated in such languages was absolutely essential to a proper biblical understanding... a notion that is still held near and dear in most denominations today. In promoting his view on education, Luther also addressed the continuing influence of scholasticism, which seemed to consider formal education of the type Luther had in mind as irrelevant and impractical, by showing just how relevant for the current world -- and the furure one -- a proper formal education could be. While Luther's views were refined by pedagogues later in the sixteenth century and beyond, they provided a substantial basis for reformed education's essential construct in the ensuing years; and provided much guidance to the Council of Trent, for example, which took great steps to provide for the systematic education of clergy in the years after Luther's death. And it wasn't just Luther, but also Melanchthon, Zwingli, Bucer, Bullinger and Calvin, just to name a few other reformers, who actively promoted education in their writings throughout their lifetimes. Virtually all mainstream denominations today place a premium on a high-quality, formal theological education for its clergy. And rightly so, I say... ...though so doing clearly exposes me to charges of espousing "rubbish," apparently. There is no question that there are "effective, competent and responsible full-time pasters/ministers" who have little or no formal education. But like unaccredited schools that are, nevertheless, rigorous, credible and legitimate, they are, I believe, in the minority. The majority of pastors/ministers who have no formal theological education risk, in my opinion, ending-up looking like Rev. Creighton Lovelace of the 55-member Danieltown Baptist Church in North Carolina. From the 5/24/2005 edition of MS-NBC's "Countdown with Keith Olbermann": LOVELACE: ...God, into his revelation to man, in the Book of Revelation, Genesis to Revelation, and he said, If any man adds to the word of this book, I will add unto him the plagues that are listed inside of this book. And if any man takes away from the words of this book, I will take away his part out of the Book of Life. And but the Muslim faith, they do hold the Koran to be holy. But yet we must remember, in this world in which we live, there are absolute, there is an absolute. There is a right way to heaven, and there is a wrong way, which would lead people to hell. OLBERMANN: Yes, sir. I'm just wondering, is that not what they say about your religion too? Is that not what the Muslims believe? Is that not part of the problem of their religion sort of spiraling off into this area of violence and terrorism? LOVELACE: Well, that's —- they claim that they trace their lineage back to the Holy Scripture. But yet if one would merely look at the Koran and look and see the stories that are taken from God's word, for example, they state that Esau, or Jesus, was born by the Virgin Mary under a palm tree. Now, Luke chapter two, verse seven, says Jesus, our Lord and our Savior, was born inside of a stable. And so as far as I can see, the Koran is merely another tool used by Satan to deceive people around the world. [...] OLBERMANN: Last question, reverend, if he saw your sign, if he saw that message, "The Koran needs to be flushed!" what would Jesus do? LOVELACE: I believe Jesus would commend us, because Jesus spoke against those who had a form of godliness but they denied the power thereof, as the Apostle Paul said, and that we, as believers of the Lord Jesus Christ, we need to take a stand inside of our world, inside of our society, and tell people what we believe. OLBERMANN: The Reverend Creighton Lovelace at the Danieltown Baptist Church in North Carolina. Thanks for your time tonight, sir. [satellite connection with Lovelace terminates] OLBERMANN: Well, must be a different Jesus than I know. But that's a debate for a different time. I don't know what kind of formal education Rev. Lovelace has, but whatever it is, it has let him down... ...or so it is my opinion. Of course, I don't have to make the value-of-education argument to you. As you pointed-out, Reverend, you have your masters and are planning a doctorate.
Yeah. What he said. Also, the ignorant Reverend Lovelace might be advised that it is Isa, that is, Jesus (assuredly not Esau!), to whom Mary is said in the Qur'an to give birth under a palm tree.
