Business Schools Irrelevant, Article Says

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by carlosb, May 16, 2005.

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  1. carlosb

    carlosb New Member

    The Chronicle of Higher Education

    From the issue dated May 13, 2005


    http://chronicle.com/prm/weekly/v51/i36/36a01001.htm

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    (emphasis mine)


    It took until 2003 for the AACSB to figure this out? What took so long? Many of us have been saying this for years.

    Just my opinion
     
  2. carlosb

    carlosb New Member

  3. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    But the purpose of business schools is to provide tenured academic employment for business professors, isn't it? And ,in turn, the schools are an important income stream for their sponsering Universities. Seems to ME that, under THIS model anyway, they're doing a good job!
     
  4. Dr Rene

    Dr Rene Member

    I think what’s also interesting from the article is that business schools expect their professors to publish “rigorously executed studies” in the highly quantitative journals, as opposed to the practitioner professional reviews. The article goes on to say that professors are also evaluated on how often their published works are cited by other scholars. However, it seems that the number of citations of articles written by professors in these top-rated journals is dramatically lower than it was a decade ago---which tells me that although professors are focusing on getting published in the top-rated journals, these published articles aren’t even cited in other research---maybe these published articles are not even be read by their peers, and definitely don’t matter to their peers?
     
  5. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    HBR: Scholars argue that the gradual accumulation of tiny facts will one day accrete to a larger and more general scientific understanding of organizational behavior.

    TLH: I'm sure that that must have been the thought - originally. But given the academic tendency (even in history departments, for criminy's sake) to reject the "old" literature as if it were inherently "outdated" while making the pseudo-modern Madison Avenue assumption that "new" must needs be "improved" will militate against ever accumulatting enough dissertations and other monographs (islands of trivia in a sea of minutiae) quickly enough to make any recognizable new ground (especially inasmuch as many of my B-school profs tended to think that the "new writings" became "old writings" in about two years).

    HBR: In business research, however, the things routinely ignored by academics on the grounds that they cannot be measured - most human factors and all matters relating to judgment, ethics, and morality - are exactly what make the difference between good business decisions and bad ones.

    TLH: Human factors, ethics, and moralty are ignored by B-school profs because you can't teach or research that which you know nothing about in the first place.

    HBR: Management professors seem to have an almost morbid fear of being damned as popularizers.

    TLH: This is true in most fields. Jim McPherson (PhD, Civil War History, Johns Hopkins University; Professor, Civil War History, Princeton University) has an article, "What's the Matter with History?" in his _Drawn with the Sword: Reflections on the American Civil War_, in which he mentions that, after publishing his _Battle Cry of Freedom_ (a very well-written and readable book that is now a "standard textbook" for many, if not most, Civil War History classes), a reader wrote him a letter warning him, "Professor McPherson, you are in danger of becoming a popular historian!" But then again it all has to do with the academic reward systems, which do not exactly encourage publishing information in forums that might actually be available to, useful to, and understandable by, those uninitiated into the guild.

    HBR: Our universities operate too much like a guild system.

    TLH: In other words, the purpose of B-schools is to assemble a collection of PhDs, DBAs, and DMs so that they can get all hooked up together and make a bunch of baby PhDs, DBAs, and DMs who can then become B-school profs themselves.

    HBR: Professions have four key elements: ... an enforceable code of ethics.

    TLH: In other words, lacking in the fourth key element, business is not a profession.

    HBR: We are not advocating a return to the days when business schools were glorified trade schools.

    TLH: And why not? Perhaps because most B-school profs in the guild have nothing useful that they can do and therefore could not even so much as teach if the B-schools followed a trade school model (one of actually teaching useful knowledge).

    HBR: Before the recent scandals, business students spent 95% of their time learning how to calculate with a view to maximizing wealth. Just 5% of their time is spent developing their moral capacities.

    TLH: I think 5% is a gross over-estimate of the amount of time a B-student spends on "developing his moral capacities."
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 16, 2005
  6. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I think that the author has a good point, but he subverts himself with his mixed messages.

    On one hand I think that he's right about applied vs. abstract-theoretical.

    But on the other hand, I think that his making his point in terms of the old neo-romantic science vs. humanities distinction, something that's largely of interest to professors and to the cultural critics with which professors are often allied, commits pretty much the same sin.

    Is it realistic to expect an academic degree program to make its students 'leaders', to provide them with 'judgement' and 'ethics' and 'morality'?

    Can those kind of things even be taught in school? If so, how? The results seem prety slim so far.

    If not, then why do B-schools even exist in the first place?

    I think that's a very serious problem.

    But the implication isn't that the assembly plant manager is all soft and mushy and touchy-feely, unconcerned with precisely defined problems and with quantitative solutions to them. Just the reverse. He wants practical solutions to the kind of problems encountered in real-life practice.

    The relevant model here might be engineering, more than pop-psychology or post-modern cultural critique. And engineering is simultaneously scientific and applications-oriented.

    So I'm inclined to agree that business schools should concern themselves with practice, but they need to teach the hard skills and then provide students with the opportunity to practice putting them to use in real-world problems.
     
  7. carlosb

    carlosb New Member

    You have a valid point.

    I found these quotes to be of interest (among many others!):


    I said it many times before here. I'll take the adjunct with real world experience over the full - time AACSB PhD ANYDAY. Don't show me what school you went to, show me what you accomplished in the REAL WORLD!



    Just my opinion
     
  8. kebauc

    kebauc New Member

    Interesting article.

    My own experiance has shown that a local college with an MBA program did not understand its own students (i.e. customer).

    When shopping for a school, I went to an open house and discussed the potential for my job to impact class attendance. The professor indicated that I would simply run the risk of failing the class. I further enquired if I could work ahead if I knew I would be out of town for a couple weeks. Same answer.

    I ended the discussion by suggesting he go back to business school and learn to meet the needs of his customers. He was not asmused.

    It is worth noting that this school advertises itself in the local media as having a program that it set up for the working professional.
     
  9. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    Not sure which school you're talking about, but it sounds like your professor needs a little attitude adjustment therapy. And you're right, far too many universities are composed of individuals who are more concerned with the needs of a self-perpetuating institution than with the needs of their students (customers). In short, the students (not the professors and the administrators) are the reasons why universities exist. - Ted.
     
  10. kebauc

    kebauc New Member

    Not wanting to malign the school, but it was Lynchburg College. A small, private liberal arts school.

    And yes his attitude does need some adjusting. As I understood it, they only have space for about 50 students a year in the MBA program, and at the time were having trouble filling that up.

    Without digressing to far - my undergraduate education in engineering (Va. Tech), was met with an "oh, well you may have difficulty because . . . ".
     
  11. JoAnnP38

    JoAnnP38 Member

    How patronizing! Has anyone ever heard of someone dropping out of a business program because it was too hard only to complete their degree in Engineering? Hmmmm?
     
  12. Jake_A

    Jake_A New Member

    I agree with you, Ted Heiks. Your statement above is quite correct. You have hit the nail right on the head. The guild, the academy, is quite necessary and has been quite successful at doing what it has been doing. It also runs the risk of alienating itself from the main body of professional business practices and relevancy via the cocooning effect.

    The challenge and largely unaddressed issue is how to implement newer strategies aimed at developing future (rigorous, quantitative, research-based, quite capable and accomplished) Business school professors (the guild factor) who are also mightily steeped in the rigors and moral challenges of the business world (the "ethics" factor).

    This has been my experience as a Biomedical Engineer and present and future Health Care/Health Systems Management (B-School or university) professor.

    Some progress has been made and is being made, albeit at quite a slow pace.

    In the US, The PhD Project (to which I appied and was competitively selected two years ago), is [/I]"an alliance of many Fortune 500 corporations and higher education institutions, along with numerous academic and professional associations, which seeks to utilize a holistic approach to improve workforce diversity by diversifying business school faculties[/I] while emphasizing the international/moral/ethical aspects of business school profesoor development activities and legitimate business practices.

    Too true! Unfortunately.

    Thanks.
     
  13. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    Lynchburg, eh? Then you would certainly be near Liberty University, which, whatever you might think of their theology, has been rated among the top 10 best buys for the money for MBA programs. And they do have both B&M & DL MBA programs at Liberty University. Are there any other MBA programs within commuting distance? Let them know that you are a savvy customer and that you will do (or have done) some comparison shopping.

    Your profs had a snarky attitude about undergraduate engineering degrees? My older brother (BS, Mechanical Engineering, Michigan State University, 1982; MBA, University of Chicago, 1987) never reported any such snarky attitudes from his MBA profs. You might want to get a copy of John & Mariah Bear's _Bear's Guide to the Best MBAs by Distance Learning_. For an engineering graduate, I would think that one of the more quantitatively-oriented DL MBAs would serve you well.
     
  14. kebauc

    kebauc New Member

    I did check out Liberty, as I recall they used the academic calendar, which turned out to be a deciding factor - but they didn't snere (sp?) as my BSME.

    And yes there are several other programs with an easy drive - JMU for example. In fact Va. Tech now offers an MBA via DL here in Lynchburg.

    I ended up at Ellis, the 6 week format for the classes met my availability needs, as well as the ability to access it from any web connection. Very helpful when out of town for a couple weeks.

    (Employer picking up the lion's share didn't hurt either.)

    Overall, the big names in business education need to recognize the need for a basic MBA for a mid career guy like myself. I don't plan (or desire) to be the next great CEO, but I do need an understanding of how a business operates. That is what the DL providers have come to understand.
     
  15. w_parker

    w_parker New Member

    The question of whether leadership can be taught or is it an innate ability has been debated in courses I have taken in the past, to include military leadership schools. Many civilian texts I have been exposed to, and granite it is a very small percentage of those available out there, often seperate leadership and management. Civilian schools tend to teach management, while military leadership schools focus on leadership skills. Most have covered much of the same material. In my opinion, B Schools can give you some basic tools, and it is up to the indivudual to learn how to apply those that work, modify those that can be useful, and disregard those that will never work in the "real world".

    William
     
  16. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    It sounds to me like there's some disconnect between this college's business school and the people writing the school's marketing materials. That's not unusual, actually.

    I'm not sure if this professor that you spoke to was evil or anything. He was probably just reflecting the college's liberal-arts college mindset, focused on traditional classroom education for on-campus students.

    Nevertheless, obviously it's good that you found out before you enrolled that the flexible programs for working adults stuff might be more marketing dream than reality.

    It's possible that the guy might have been giving you information that you needed. A great deal depends on what you left out, what followed the "because".

    Obviously an engineering degree from Virginia Tech is a fine and excellent degree. But if the Lynchburg MBA presuposes an undergraduate business foundation that you don't have in technical stuff like accounting and finance, then you probably need to know it. It might mean that you have to take additional classes or something.
     
  17. kebauc

    kebauc New Member

    On that, you summed up the exact impression I left with.


    QUOTE]Originally posted by BillDayson
    But if the Lynchburg MBA presuposes an undergraduate business foundation that ..... you have to take additional classes or something. [/QUOTE]

    Pretty much the case, but rounded out to include the implication that I would havae difficulty simply because of the subject matter. Perhaps his experiance showed that, I don't know.
     
  18. carlosb

    carlosb New Member

    Action MBA-E

    Anyone familar with this program? Realize it is not dl but sure looks interesting:

    http://www.actonmba.org/local.php?id=17



     
  19. carlosb

    carlosb New Member

    I tend to agree with you. The professor was most likely suggesting that undergrad leveling courses would be required. The amount of credits required vary with the school involved. An associate with a liberal arts degree is running into the same thing. I seriously doubt anyone would look down on a degree from Virginia Tech!
     

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