In my search for some additional education for my edification and at an affordable cost I have decided to do a Master of Ministry degree through Nations. No it is not Dallas Theological Seminary but the courses look interesting. Each non internet course consists of several texts, and then exams that are a combination of essay and multiple choice. Interesting array of courses...for example..you can major in Comparative Religion and after the required courses you have a choice of around 8 or more different courses in Islam, Hinduism, Budahism, etc. The church history major has even more courses to choose from. At any rate, I am under no illusion about the value of the degree and am doing it for fun. The cost is 100 per year for enrollment. I am enamored of the interesting missions nature of the school. It is not for profit and serves mostly third world students in order to equip them for ministry. They are associated with the Church of Christ. Some limited opportunites exist for transfer to accredited schools. I am no expert in Church of Christ theology, history, etc but I understand that unaccredited Schools of Preaching are something of a church tradition. I had a friend who was a graduate of one. As an side, he used to get ticked at Hank Hanegraaf whenever he went off on Cambellites. North
As much as I like the concept, does anyone doubt that many people will be misrepresenting the true nature of a Nations degree? Not directed at you, North. I would be much more comfortable if they simply issued certificates of completion.
I agree. It shouldn'be be called a "degree" unless it can really function as one in the real world. And, like it or not, the real world is an accredited world. This is the critical thing that the mill shills and others who think unaccredited is just as good typically miss: In a world where most "degrees" are accredited degrees, it becomes misleading to call anything less by the name "degree." There can be exceptions to this, I suppose, of course. But I'm just sayin'... generally.
I don't know much about Nations' program, but unless they are selling degrees outright, I don't think I would refer to them as a mill. There are many bible colleges which are unaccredited, and some of them do have value by virtue of their reputation. Bob Jones University comes to mind, although they may not be a true bible college. I do remember reading here that they are seeking some sort of accreditation. Unless the person earning the Nations degree is holding themselves out as some kind of biblical scholar, I don't see the harm in earning a degree in this manner. I have always been fascinated by the idea of a "free" degree. There are schools which have accomplished this, although during my many internet searches I have found they are very few in number. It's just too bad that knowledge has to come at such a high price. Anyone can pick up a book, I guess. It's having the credential which goes with that knowledge that carries the price tag, I suppose.
I didn't mean to make it sound like I believed that about them. From what people -- reliable people -- have written about Nations, the work would appear to be real. Whether it's equivalent to the rigor one would see if the school were accredited is another matter. But there is no doubt in my mind that Nations is more likely to require real work from its students than it is that it doesn't and/or that it's some kind of millish sort of place. I'm sorry if it seemed like I believed otherwise. Getting into the "unaccredited can have value, too" doesn't address -- in fact, misses completely -- the point I was trying to make: That in a world where most things which people call "degrees" are accredited, it starts becoming a relatively safe thing to assume that when a person claims a degree, it's probably accredited. In a world like that -- and that's most certainly what this world has become -- it starts becoming misleading for one to refer to an unaccredited credential as a "degree." Everyone who hears someone else say they have a bachelors or a masters degree in suchandsuch shouldn't have to stop the converstation to verify that it's accredited. Better that unaccredited degrees maybe not even be called degrees. Of course, the problem is just as you've described: There actually are some completely unaccredited degrees out there that are every bit as credible as accredited ones. They're rare, of course -- far, far more rare than the mill shills and others of their ilk would have everyone believe -- but they exist. For example, the bar card that California allows unaccredited (but CalBar-eligible) JD holders to carry in their wallets after passing the very same bar exam that ABA-approved JD holders pass evidences at least one kind of unaccredited degree that clearly is as good as its accredited counterpart. So I'm certainly not saying that it's unheard of. See, that's where it all starts falling apart. What does "holding themselves out" mean, in this case? How far past "I have a masters degree in..." does one have to go before they're "holding themselves out?" I argue that just saying they have the degree is "holding themselves out." And if it's not really a degree in the same sense as everyone else thinks of as a degree (i.e., an accredited degree), then that, alone, becomes misleading. I don't see the harm in doing the work and getting a certificate of completion when it's finished, and then claiming that, but not a degree. And then letting whatever that means stand on its own merits. But calling it a "degree" is really misleading. We're in agreement there... to a point. Having to pay for it has its benefits in terms of one's own view of its value. An old mentor of mine used to always make me pull a dollar out of my pocket and slide it across the table to him, and then he put it into his pocket, before he would respond to any sentence of mine which began, "Listen... lemmee ask your advice on something..." When I asked him why, he responded, "Free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it." In years since I've realized that the pound of silver is a potent attention-getter; and makes the recipient of the advice value it more. An education, it seems to me, too easily acquired may be too easily devalued. Just a hunch. On the other hand, maybe the higher the price, the more it's respected. See above. Exactly. But that doesn't mean that a real degree that someone has somehow figured out a way to deliver for free should, because of that, be dismissed as worthless or, if not, then of lesser value. I mean, if the degree is accredited and whatever school offers it decides to give it away, it's no less of a degree.
Hi North. My own interests right now are in education for its own sake, rather than in credentialling. So things like degrees and accreditation aren't tremendously important to me. There are several non-accredited things that I've given some thought to enrolling in on a non-degree basis, simply because I like them. So I can certainly relate to your motivation. Of course, a degree program provides structure and focus that might be valuable. And if you complete all the requirements, then why not let them award you the degree? The question then is what to do with it. Personally, if I thought that a non-accredited degree wasn't credible, I'd keep it to myself. But if I thought that it was credible and that I could make a persuasive case for it, then I would try to be proud of it. Of course, I rarely have occasion to tell other people about my accredited degrees, so I don't know how often that issue would even come up. Is Nation's University credible? I don't know. I think that I'll leave the critiquing of Christian religious programs to Bill Grover who is better at it than me. So I don't have any big problem with what you are doing, North. Good luck to you and I hope that you find your studies valuable.
Geez, DesElms...I didn't know you were going to hold up my post to such a thorough rectal exam...LOL. The point of it was to say, if the guy is going to use the degree to get a job as a professor of biblical studies or a scholar of some sort...then yeah, I think an accredited degree is what is called for here. Perhaps it would be better for Nations to offer certificates or even diplomas instead of "degrees". If North wants to study at Nations and earn their degree, that is up to him. He has clearly stated it's for his own enjoyment. Now, if he said he was going to use the credential to become the White House chaplain or something like that, then sure...I would question it, too. I
North - I have some knowledge of Nations and the churches of Christ. There are several traditional colleges associated with churches of Christ (Abilene Christian, Harding, Pepperdine, David Libscomb, Faulkner, Rochester, Lubbock Christian, Oklahoma Christian, David Libscomb and Florida Christian). There are also a number of preacher training schools. The fellows that started Nations did so with genuinely alturistic goals. They observed that all too often foreign students who attended church related schools in the U.S. tended to stay in the U.S. and not return home. Also, the cost of U.S. schools is also beyond reach for many in the developing world. Nations is an attempt to reach out and provide religous education at very little cost. Considering the reason you are pursuing a degree - this certainly sounds a viable approach Regars - Andy
Bruce, In your opinion, what is the true nature of a NationsUniversity degree? Another typical Rant from Mr. DesElms. Nations University appears to be quite up front as to why they have chosen not to pursue accreditation: http://www.nationsu.org/index.pl/standing Which appears to be in absolute accordance with NationsUniversity's mission statement: http://www.nationsu.org/index.pl/mission http://www.nationsu.org/index.pl/history In short, since all of NationsUniversity's degree programs are in religious studies, Mr. DesElms' little secular Taliban proclamation that NationsUniversity should not call their degrees degrees would even be laughed at in Oregon. You see, in the United States we have the First Amendment. Universal Life Church, INC. (Plaintiff) -vs- United States of America, In the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of California. Civil Order No. 1964, 1 March 1974. From the Universal Textbook, 1992. North, Please let us know what you think of the program. I hope you find it beneficial.
Actually, under the current administration, I'd think that a Nations degree would be a perfectly appropriate credential for that job. Cool. I have a reputation! Agreed. And I think I was complimentary about Nations, generally, in my earlier post. I actually have no problem with them and, moreover, applaud what they're doing. I would caution, however, that just because a school -- in fact, sometimes because a school -- bothers to explain why it hasn't sought accreditation is no reason to assume the school's okay. "Accreditation is voluntary" is often the opening volley of diploma mills when they deliver their apologia for not being accredited. That said, clearly Nations explanation isn't like that. I understand their reasons, and they make sense under the circumstances. The issue is whether whatever they deliver amounts to a "degree." In terms of equivalent work and/or rigor, it just might, for all I know. It seems, actually, that it's more likely that they do than that they don't. And that's admirable. I'm simply saying -- and I believe Bruce was simply saying -- that it wouldn't be as misleading if they just issued certificates of completion. Heck, they could even write right on them that having completed their coursework is objectively and provably equivalent to having earned suchandsuch degree from an accredited univeristy or something. From what I've heard, it might just be... which, if so, is something that both Nations and those who complete its programs should be justly proud. Which is the part of it that most irritates you and most offends your inordinate sense of theocracy, I realize. For a person who throws the First Amendment in everyone's face at every turn, you sure do have a theocratic -- and, therefore, counter-First-Amendment -- way of viewing and sizing up things, don't you? Taliban. Wow. Your sense of who is "them" (versus "us") can be a little scary. But I digress. Oregon doesn't even play a role in this discussion -- and certainly not with regard to the First Amendment. And please don't cite ULC v. USA again. We all know what it says... and its larger import. At best, this is a moralistic and ethical discussion, not a legal one.
The accreditors don't insist that accredited schools charge tuition. (There are several free RA schools, in fact.) Nor do the accreditors insist that DL-only schools maintain libraries full of books. The student-faculty ratio thing might be a more serious issue though. When schools suggest that they are unaccredited in order to maintain high standards, that sounds millish to me. The argument that they are unaccredited in order to cut costs is a lot more plausible, but it isn't exactly reassuring. After all, if a university is such a shaky operation that it can't afford the costs associated with accreditation, then questions arise about whether the institution has the resources necessary to operate its degree programs. Little Intercultural Institute of California operates out of a Victorian house in San Francisco with a miniscule FTE enrollment (acording to the WASC directory) of 5 (!!!). But WASC has granted them candidacy. The demands of the accreditors on small schools can't be all that unreasonable.
After viewing the website in your signature line, I guess I shouldn't be surprised by your politics, as misguided as they may be.
Nations is fairly transparent with expenses. One of their newletters or other on line documents has salaries of everyone listed. My impression like that of Dr. Borchers is that this is a sincere missions effort. The administrative fee they charge to US students covers their administrative cost and that is it. International students pay nothing. Certainly.....no one is getting rich off this effort. Although, there are now RA accreditors willing to consider distance learning institutions without libraries, etc....this is a relatively recent development. In fact, TRACS still will not allow 100% distance learning institutions and requires libraries in spite of technology. You may be right Bill but my impression of accreditation is that it was very expensive. I think Nations is sincere in their statement. They are offering a basically tuition free education aiming worldwide (mainly third world countires). Their goal is to equip people for the mission of the church. They have made the effort to secure some limited transfer opportunities to RA schools but that is not their primary goal. I just think it is a neat opportunity. A becoming part of a sincere missionary effort and international student body & receiving a free education in a variety of subject areas that will beeter equip me for the work of the gospel. North
Personal interest and/or enrichment. I might even take some courses myself, since they interest me, and the price is certainly right. However, I'm not questioning Nations' motives, rather the motives of some people that will invariably misrepresent a degree from Nations University, because you know that's going to happen, sooner or later. When I think of things like this, I'm always reminded of "Atlantic University" in Bears' Guide.
Typical DesElms, again. He has no idea of what is required to earn a NationsUniversity Degree, yet he's quick to proclaim Wrong. More typical DesElmsisms. He enters this discussion making statements as to what is and what is not a real degree, and in this case coming to conclusions without any knowledge of the institution being discussed. When counter arguments are made, DesElms responds with more erroneous assumptions. No, what offended me was the swiftness of an individual's "moralistic and ethical" statement. Now that he has admitted that he does not know, perhaps DesElms will do a little investigation before jumping on and shouting from bandwagons in the future.
Clarification I think Bruce is talking about a degree from Atlantic Monthly Magazine, rather than the DETC accredited Atlantic University, which is also in Bears' Guide. The DETC Atlantic University was founded by the Edgar Cayce and is part of the ARE organization. Atlantic University offers a DL Masters in Transpersonal Studies.
