Standards - Australia vs. Germany

Universities in English speaking countries have the three stage degree
system - Bachelors, Masters, and Doctorates. Some German institutions
are now also offering three stage degrees. The Bachelors degree is the
basic degree which qualifies a person to be employed as a graduate and
to practice a profession. (Some practical experience may also be
required for professional practice.) This mirrors the function of the
Academic Diplom in Germany. A Masters degree at an Australian university
is either a research degree, or a vocationally oriented postgraduate
course.
The agreement between the Australian and German authorities about mutual
recognition of degrees states:
'In principle, periods of study at higher education institutions in
Australia or Germany should be regarded as comparable on a year-to-year
basis. However there are programs and awards in each system which do not
lend themselves to direct comparisons with awards in the other system,
and which may need to be considered individually, depending on the
purpose for which an evaluation is required........
'The Australian PhD and the German Doctorate should be regarded as
comparable.
The Australian Professional doctorate (eg., the DBA) should be regarded
in Germany - which has no such degree - as comparable to the normal
doctorate (Promotion). The Professional Doctorate is a doctorate
undertaken by professionals, and requiring the submission and defence of
a normal thesis.'

 

How do you think the Germans would regard the U.S. medical and law degrees granted at the doctoral level without the submission and defence of a normal thesis?

Not that this really matters on a professional level--since the license to practice is foremost for these U.S. practitioners--however, it may be interesting to compare academic systems.

EsqPhD

 

The German philosophy of education differs so much from the U.S.-model philosophy of education that I think if I were to attend a German university, I would be lost.

Cynics might say this is because I can't speak German.


Peace

------------------
Tom Head
www.tomhead.net

 

German authorities uses the Carnegie-Mellon
classifications - there is a list of universities and degrees which can be used
in germany without in depth case based comparison. Currently for the US the list only contains doctoral degrees, I will look them up over the weekend and tell You more on monday.

 

The Bachelors degree is the
basic degree which qualifies a person to be employed as a graduate and
to practice a profession.
This is wrong. The bachelors degrees are hardly known in Germany. And even the big companies prefer candidates with Diplom degrees. For practicing a profession (law, medicine, teaching, pharmacy etc.) you need a II. Staatsexamen degree. This involves four years of university study plus at least two years of internships.

This mirrors the function of the
Academic Diplom in Germany.
Wrong again. A bachelors degree is definitely less than a Diplom. Bachelors degrees are 6 semesters in Germany, Diplom degrees usually at least 8. Germans on a Diplom degree program get accepted to British/Australian/American Masters degree programs without having finished their Diplom degree, if they have finished the coursework of 6 semesters.

The Australian PhD and the German Doctorate should be regarded as
comparable. The Australian Professional doctorate (eg., the DBA) should be regarded
in Germany - which has no such degree - as comparable to the normal
doctorate (Promotion).
That is correct.

 

The German philosophy of education differs so much from the U.S.-model philosophy of education that I think if I were to attend a German university, I would be lost.
In fact, I was lost. After more than three years in a German law program (just one year left) I really had enough. I finished my Excelsior degree and will go to England for graduate study.

 

The German University system is actually not THAT complicated:

by now, it´s mostly a system of 8-10 semesters of study to get a Diploma (which is comparable to a Master´s degree).
In the half-time, you get your "Zwischenprüfung"/"Vordiplom" (pre-Diploma). The Diploma enables you to begin doctoral studies (if the grades are good enough). Up till now, there were no things like Bachelor´s degrees in between (which would be set after the 6th semester, approximately).

Since a little bit more than one year, Germany (and all the other EU countries also!) have been planning to set up the anglo-american system NEXT TO our traditional one (so to say: Bachelor degree after 6-7 semesters, Master´s degree after another app. 4 semesters) - in the long term, it´s possible that our traditional Diplomas will be totally changed into the English named Master´s degrees. By that, the EU countries are trying to increase the understanding of our diplomas and the possibilities for students to study in other countries without losing credits for the abroad studies when coming back to their home university.

As I said, it´s not that complicated...

Greetings,

Trigger

(who will finish hin Business Diploma in October, and getting a translation saying "this degree is equivalent to a Anlo-American Master´s Degree in Business" (in English) from his home university also)

P.S.: To the point of doctorates: as mentioned, continental Europe doesn´t really have "professional" doctorates. Each doctorate is more a scientific piece of work, leaning to a thesis, an argumentation and sometimes also to exams.

 

Lewchuk wrote:

"The Bachelors degree is the
basic degree which qualifies a person to be employed as a graduate and
to practice a profession. (Some practical experience may also be
required for professional practice.) This mirrors the function of the
Academic Diplom in Germany.


That is not quite correct.

A Bachelor´s degree is BY LAW _LESS_ than a German University Diploma.

German law says explicitly that a Diploma from a German University (I guess 95 % of all German universities are run by the State, we don´t have many private universities) is the same as an Anglo-American Master´s degree.
Only the Diplomas from "Fachhochschulen" (universites of applied sciences - comparable to former British polytechnics!) are "worth" as much as a (British) "Bachelor with Honours" degree (by law again), which again is a little more than an American Bachelor degree...

Greets,

Trigger

 

so:

4 semesters: German Vordiplom (old)
6 semesters: German Bachelor (new) (=US or GB Bachelor)
7-8 semesters: German Fachhochschule-Diplom (=British Bachelor with Honors)
10 semesters: German University Diplom (old) or German Master (new)

afterwards: Doctoral studies

(even though it might be for the first time, that EXCELLENT Bachelor students may get permission to start doctoral studies also; but somehow I endoubt that...)

 

... which is not equivalent to an MBA but to an M.Sc. in Business Studies or something like that.

 

Yes, Peter.
Compared to a Master of Science or a Master of Arts, that is correct (since there are no professional degrees so far as a first degree).

But things are changing dramatically.
From about 3.000 study programs in Germany, more than 500 lead to the new degrees (Bachelor/Master) - after only 1 year.

 

What type of degree do physicians get in Germany in order to practice medicine?

 

Strike the previous post...I meant, what is a Straatexam degree most equivalent to in the U.S.? Is it mainly a professional license?

EsqPhD

 

Straatexam (sic) -- Staatsexamen (early morning mistakes -- sorry)

EsqPhD

 

Actually, physicians who have finished their studies and are allowed to practice medicine are just allowed to call themselves "physician" (although there could be some lack of translation here, the German word would be "Arzt"), NOT "Dr."!

They need to make their "Promotion" (dissertation and exam) to get the Doctor´s degree (although MOST physicians do that because it´s kindof easier to get a Doctorate in Medicine than in the more scientific subjects).

Therefore, it´s possible that a practising physician is not a "Dr." (but most of them are...)

Another thing for understanding: German doctorates are mostly in Latin, and don´t only say "Ph.D." like most of the English doctorates, but also the subject name, e.g.:

"Dr. med.": Doctor medicinae (M.D.)
"Dr. rer. oec." Doctor rerum oeconomicarum (Doctor of Business Administration)
"Dr. iur.": Doctor iuris (Juris Doctor)
"Dr. theol.": Doctor theologiae (Doctor of Theology)

...

(the system is pretty much the same in Austria and Switzerland)

 

Okay, for further confusion:


The German University "Diploma" is seen as equivalent to the "Staatsexamen" and the "Magister Artium" (actually, most students just talk about their "making my Diplom", even though there are these 2 other degrees which are on the same niveau).

The "Magister Artium" is the easist one for English understanding - it´s pretty much the same as the Master of Arts (you get a M.A. degree in Germany for Languages, Social Sciences and some other subjects. The main different to a "Diplom" is that you study 2 equivalent major subjects (or: 1 major and 2 minors) for your degree, whereas a "Diplom" ist just in 1 (!) single subject (so my Business Diploma is ONLY in Business, Economics, Statistics, Marketing and related stuff - I am not allowed to study ANY interdisciplinary stuff like Americans are allowed to).

The "Staatsexamen" (English translation sounds pretty similar: state exam) is the degree for prospective teachers, lawyers, etc. - those guys (I guess Peter can explain that a bit better) make their examinations at State offices).

But all in all, those 3 degrees are mostly seen as being on the same height...

(Gosh, I guess my English is really rusty; hope you get what I mean...)

Greets, T.

 

I've a piece of information from the ZAB(Zentrallstelle für ausländisches Bildungswesen/head office for foreign education) regarding recognition of British bachelors in Germany.
They recommend to equate a British bachelor in the areas of electrical engineering, mechanical engineering and other engineering sciences as well as economics, social sciences etc. to the German Fachhochschulabschluß in case the following reqirements are fullfilled:

-length of the degree at least 3 years.
-corresponding academic standards and required professional experience.
-an examination and a final paper.

Dennis Siemens

 

What is the normal length of time beyond the Diplom--for one to obtain the German doctorate in the fields above?

(A question for you and Peter)
As to the Juris Doctor (Dr. iur.), the American system (obviously different) grants that degree for U.S. legal graduates (after the Bachelors)--how is that perceived from the German perspective--or are the systems too different to compare?

EsqPhD

 

I´d say that you normally study 3-5 years after your Master´s degree to get a Doctor´s degree in Germany in any scientific area (I guess you can get the M.D. a lot sooner, but most of the other ones take several years).

 

In Dutch Straatexam means street exam. Maybe you just discovered a future educational trend .

Dennis Siemens