Online versus brick and mortar

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by matt, Apr 14, 2005.

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  1. matt

    matt Member

    It's the aged old debate. I just had one with a friend who happens to teach in a B&M school. He thinks that B&M education is superior because of the face-to-face interaction. I have been to both B&M and online schools. My path to online school was mainly due to flexibility of schedule. Since I work full-time, it is difficult to attend a B&M school.

    What are your thoughts on whether B&M schools offer a more superior education for the same course of study? Do you think online education intrinsically lack quality because of a lack of face-to-face class interaction with your teacher and classmates?

    I've seen the online versus B&M schools topic on news/investigative reporting shows like 60 Minutes, etc.

    Just want to hear your thoughts on this...
     
  2. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    In my experience, B.A. and J.D. through B&M schools, A.A.S. and pending LL.M. through D/L, B&M is a much easier environment in which to learn. For me, a lot of learning takes place in the classroom and in the halls before and after class sessions. On line sessions just don't seem to engage me as thoroughly as physical class sessions do.

    My experiences with Law Tutors On Line have been positive, (though humbling!) but life would be easier if I had might classes on Monday, Wednesday and Friday (or whatever).

    That said, if it is a choice between online or nothing, on line DOES work and is a viable approach.
     
  3. jugador

    jugador New Member

    It's a question that will never be answered. I can tell you from personal experience however, that I have learned the most from my distance education courses. This is because they are well structured. Oftentimes, classroom courses wander because of loquacious students/teachers or teachers who are habitually late or absent. My distance education courses normally finish the entire book and require a LOT of homework. Assuming the student of distance education courses is self-disciplined, he finds himself in a program of study that both challenges and rewards him. I also believe that distance education providers are also sensitive to potential criticism, and therefore go the extra mile to make sure their courses meet or exceed B&M course standards. I would absolutely, positively not look askance at a DL program grad. In fact, all else being equal, I might give him an edge over a B&M student because of his demonstrated self-discipline and independence. Every DL course I have taken says something to the effect, "This is the same course in quality and content as that taken by traditional students at the University of Wisconsin at Madison and fully meets prerequisite requirements for more advanced courses." Many of them also say something to the effect, "Since this correspondence course is equal in quality to that taken by our traditional classroom students, there will no reason to indicate on your transcript that it was taken through our distance education program."
     
  4. Andy Borchers

    Andy Borchers New Member

    Based on the research I believe that "all other things being equal" there is "no significant difference" between B&M and DL.

    However, rarely are "all other things equal". Typical B&M and DL institutions work in radically different ways with respect to faculty, financing, curriculum development, and governance.

    Regards - Andy

     
  5. spmoran

    spmoran Member

    In my opinion, DL is more of a challenge because I am forced to read and write about the material. My experience with B&M was that I could listen and regurgitate for exams pretty easily without ever cracking open a book. Once I got the hang of the instructor and the course layout, it was pretty much a matter of biding my time till finals. Online is different because I don't get to listen, I have to read and do. And then I have to write about what I read and did in a way that makes sense to the instructor. Hopefully, they can tell if a person is full of it or not.

    I suppose that since not all students are the same and not all online programs are the same, there is no single answer to this. But I do know that I've retained a great deal more from studying for online and standardized exams than I learned from sitting in class.
     
  6. edowave

    edowave Active Member

    As someone who has done lots of both, I've had good and bad experiences with B&M and DL.

    I have found that it all boils down to the quality of the instructor.
     
  7. PaulC

    PaulC Member

    Re: Re: Online versus brick and mortar

    Andy, I think even when you take into account that all things aren't equal, the very large number of published studies on this indicate there is still no significant difference in learning outcomes. I don't even think it requires indvidual anecdotal opinions. Far more data to suggest similar outcomes than suggest otherwise.
     
  8. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    One more factor is that DL is not the same as On Line.

    The question was On Line education and B&M.

    DL may be correspondence as well.

    Any way technology is advancing and ON LINE may be face to face and more.

    Increasing number of students have access to fast internet

    Now there are universities that provide DVD's and taped lectures so one can relisten and watch lecture as many time as he wants.

    In the Campus once you attended a lecture that’s it, you have your notes and couple of minutes with your professor or his assistant.

    How about taped lecture of a leading prominent professor in his field and you can rewind it and view it multiple times or DVD.
    I remember Television lectures and when resided in CA Cal State Univ had a chancel on the cable system educational TV.

    Well you even can view it on Big Screen TV well no Surround sound or Dolby THX :)

    If you have questions you email them or call?

    Now some advanced colleges have streaming video and audio and many other delivery methods that may see as a threatening traditional B&M delivery methods.

    Learner
     
  9. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    Learner has made some good points (as have others). I'd like to add my own. First, I think the original question is too general. We all know that there is a range in the quality of RA schools. They all meet the minimum standards but some exceed those standards by a large margin. Is it possible that one (or more) of the online schools is actually better (however that is to be measured) than one (or more) of the B&M schools? Of course it's possible. But does that mean that online learning is beter than butt-in-classroom learning? I don't think that would be a fair conclusion. Is it possible that there are students (maybe even a lot of students) that will actually learn more, achieve more, etc. in an online learning environment than a B&M learning environment? Of course it's possible. Does that mean that online learning is superior to butt-in-classroom learning? Maybe, but only for those specific students. Overall my point is this, if you want interesting conversation then the original question is fine. If, however, you actually want to move toward a real answer to a real question then I think a more specific, tightly defined question must be asked. Personally, I think I'd do better in a classroom situation. Like many others, that's not possible for me at this point and so I look to other means. I can easily imagine someone feeling just the opposite. That doesn't make me right and them wrong (or just the opposite). How about this for a question:
    What factors must be present for an online learning program to be seen as preferable to a B&M learning environment?
    Good thread.
    Jack
     
  10. suelaine

    suelaine Member

    Online vs. B&M

    In my opinion, there are only two factors which would cause a B&M situation to actually provide a "better" education. One situation is for technical or science classes where access to a lab and specific technical equipment and resources are needed and provided in a lab setting at the B&M school. The other situation is if you want to be able to skip classes and just ask a friend for the notes, and study for tests. If that is you, then B&M provides a better education! The other factors mentioned so far are situations that vary just as much with each type of school, such as how the curriculum is designed, how much is covered, and how the instructor interacts with students. I've taken a lot of classes both ways and I have to spend more time and effort to "engage" in my DL courses. With many B&M courses, I just showed up (because I was not the type to skip classes) but I can see where it might not have hurt me if I did). I'd go home and I could put off almost all "homework" or skip it all together with no repercussions. So other than bothering to get to the class, which seems like a real chore to me, B&M is easier (less work!) Interesting, one of my first courses with Empire State College was Psychology. This was not considered DL at that time (b4 Internet courses) but I worked independently with a tutor. Imagine my surprise when I later discovered that we covered the very same text book the local college used, but they covered it in two semesters instead of one! (And I still don't know if they finished the book). As and Independent learner, I was not given the option not to finish the book, and it was in one semester, not two. I think this happens more in the DL world than people think. Courses are planned in advance and the option to not finish the book or other parts of the curriculum just doesn't exist. With all that said, I think there will always be a place for B&M and eventually the growth of online schools will level off. Some people prefer the live social interaction with students and the instructor. I think they are kidding themselves if they believe that equals "better learning" but there is nothing wrong with admitting you prefer that environment.
     
  11. qvatlanta

    qvatlanta New Member

    I think there's a tendency on this forum to assume that distance learning = material learned more strictly and more in-depth.... simply because we're all distance learners. I think it's important to recognize that not everyone has the same learning style. Some people really need auditory enforcement in order to fully comprehend written material. I think there's a lot of totally valid reasons why someone would prefer in-class versus distance, not just because it's easier to skip out on assignments. On the graduate level there is often very little assignment work involved, and a huge amount of the grade depends on how much you are engaged in class discussions and what kind of critical thinking and originality you're introducing into the class.

    Also, not only are science lab classes difficult to replicate on line, but there's also these to consider...

    -- speaking/listening component of language classes
    -- much of theater, music, dance, art
    -- film and video production
    -- some anthropology

    On the other hand, I think there are a few writing-intensive subjects that would actually be taught better and more efficiently via distance education.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 15, 2005
  12. suelaine

    suelaine Member

    Qvatlanta,
    I can't disagree with anything you said. The types of classes that you mentioned can't really be done effectively online or by distance learning. You just need the physical resources and classmates the B&M institution would have in those cases.
    For other classes, though, In my own experience, I didn't get that much "auditory enforcement" of what I was supposed to learn for my classes so that may be one reason that I seem rather biased toward DL, for myself, anyway. For example, I took a B&M oriented class in teaching language arts. The classes were almost 8 hours long and the professor wasted most of the time putting me to sleep with stories about his fly fishing in Australia. He did get in his big push for Whole language, though and did tell us his grading philosophy (for how we as future teachers should grade) but then he went totally against his own philosophy when grading us. Only two in the class got As (I was not one of them) but one girl that did get an A was obviously the daughter of someone he played bridge with regularly. He spent a lot of time talking about playing bridge with his friends, too. The guy was awful, and he was the head of his department at the college so there wasn't even really anyone you could complain about him to. But I know, this is just one class in one situation. In reality, I fully believe it is a matter of preference, though I know some choose DL because it is their only option because of their other obligations. I know for me, I learn more and better by DL. And I don't have to listen to stories about fly fishing if I don't want to.
     
  13. CoachTurner

    CoachTurner Member

    The greatest majority of music coursework at the undergrad level is in theory and history of music.

    One can certainly study music theory effectively at home as well (and maybe better) than in a classroom. Some of the most respected music theory training in the world is done online via Berklee Music.

    The advantage to studying at home is that one does not get saddled with a single interpretation of "the right way" and can examine several possible means to accomplish the task. Many guitarists who have studied theory on their own before going to college find they already have a much greater grasp of the subject than is presented in lower level courses.

    Sight Singing and Ear Training require few resources that an instructor can provide better than technology and a good church choir can provide.

    Software solutions are able to provide accurate real-time feedback in Ear Training much more effectively than an individual instructor and without the distraction of fellow students.

    There is no variation in the sound of a major 3rd when presented in a classroom or when played to you by a computer. I major 3rd will always sound and look the same.

    Many agree Sight Singing/Reading practice is best done in a choir setting and I can think of no communities without a Church choir to practice with. :)

    Musical Dictation is best learned by practicing it. Even in a classroom setting the technique is to listen and write what you've heard. This doesn't require the intervention of an instructor at all -- get a CD and write down the music on it. The disadvantage to the classroom setting is that often the dictation practice is restricted to only four parts -- taking six to eight (or more) part transcriptions off of a music CD is a far better experience.

    History of Music can be taught online as well as we presently teach History of the World. It may be taught better DL through the use of a wider variety of AV material. At home I have all day to listen to and relisten to a Palestrina Mass. In the classroom, we get very little time to explore the whole work. It is impossible to listen just once to some historical works in less than an hour. Music History is best studied at home in seclusion where you can truly examine the work at hand.

    DL ensemble performance would be a real challenge. But, there are group performance opportunities in most communities that often exceed the opportunities availble in a small university setting. Not only are there often more chances to play music outside the university, many are offered with renumeration. Would we argue that the more valid performing experience comes from singing in university choir class (in rehearsal) twice a week, or from singing in the church choir (in performance) twice a week? It may be that ensemble performance experiences in the real world greatly exceed those of the university setting. Ensemble can be done by contract learning.

    Applied Instruction: ok -- here we have a DL challenge of sorts. Even so, a music major spends about 1 hour a week in face-to-face instruction with the applied teacher and about 10-12 (or more) in individual practice (all alone in a room). Unless you are studying some truly obscure instrument, you can find a quality teacher in most communities. Applied Music can be done by contract learning.

    This leaves the recital requirement. What reason is there that a student performing recital can't be done in a recording studio and a CD sent to the committee for grade? Recording performances is the industry standard these days for distribution of music...

    So, I'd argue that there is no good reason that a quality musical education can't be attained through DL (using contract learning methods and technology). The major in music is far more encompassing than simply playing music and many would argue that the playing part of the major is the least of the challenges.

    Few other majors come to college having already studied their field seriously for six to eight years. It's the technical and theoretical knowledge that a university provides.

    I'm not an artist, I can't speak to weather art studio would work the same. Theatre could work this way though -- there are productions in most communities for performance experience but the majority of a theatre major is spent in theory.



    :D

    Much of that has always been done in a sort of DL mode. I say this because a lot of anthropology study is done in observation, outside of the classroom setting.

    Anthropology coursework is actually an argument in favor of DL. "Hey, let's all fly down to Belize and examine the culture for two weeks" -- that seems pretty distance to me... :D
     
  14. qvatlanta

    qvatlanta New Member

    That was an interesting explanation of music education. I think the case for music online is definitely a lot stronger than I thought it was. However, I still think that in general, when it comes to the multimedia component of DL, right now we're still in the late Stone Age. The technology is available, but the capacity for widescale implementation and the technical knowledge is still very scarce.

    My own background is in language and writing, but I work in a job that involves heavy use of streaming audio. There are a quite a few people working in the office that are active musicians, but their background doesn't necessarily give them a better understanding of audio technology. One person who performs and produces on the side is amazing at it. Another person who has a similar background knows some of the theory but is not really good at applying it. Other musically inclined people are just typical end-users who often run into confusing problems. My point is that right now the technology is a lot more diffiult to use than it could be, and that a lot of the limitations of DL would be removed if a) the technology became simpler, more user-friendly and more efficient, more widely available and less costly for both students and teachers.

    Let's say that for some future DL college classes, everyone has a dream set-up. There's full video-conferencing of every class. A student accesses their physical anthropology class a few hours after the teacher holds it. When the teacher presents up a pottery shard for analysis, the student presses one button to freeze the conference, clicks a few times on the pottery shard to get a near-microscopic view of it but lets the teacher's voice play on describing characteristics of dye remnants. The lecture notes and electronic textbook are also on the screen, and both of them can be highlighted and notated electronically. Afterwards, the student turns on their own videocamera and attends a synchronous vocal technique lab in which they get feedback on certain breathing exercises. If the teacher wants to point out a fellow student who's doing something particularly right or wrong, so that other students can learn from that, they just point them out with a digital pointer and the cameras of all the students instantly focus on them.

    Technology like this adds back in peer interaction and multimedia feedback. It would also make classes less attractive for people who prefer to study absolutely independently. However, these kind of people are really a minority of all learners. Many people absolutely need this kind of reinforcement, and other people don't need it but find it very helpful.
     
  15. GUNSMOKE

    GUNSMOKE New Member

    I'm with Nos on this one

    I have found online learning to be much more challenging. It requires tremendous self-discipline. B&M is much easier because of its structure and because of the face to face.

    The REAL question is what standards are used to judge a student's work. My online experience is limited to LSU Independent Study, where the program is run by regular faculty using the same standards, texts, lesson plans, etc. that they do when teaching the same courses in the clasroom.

    Face to face gives you the oppoetunity to clarify, discuss, share perspectives, expand on ideas all before being graded on assignments.

    Given the same standards online demands much more of the student!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2005
  16. LBTRS

    LBTRS Member

    I have attended both and DL or "online" has been much more challenging for me. In B&M classes I would show up for class and anything I didn't understand would be clarified during the next session of class. I didn't have to spend any time reading just listening in class and taking good notes. The tests always covered what was talked about in class.

    DL I have to read everything and if I don't understand something I have to research and read more to grasp the material. I actually have to understand the material since I'm graded on what I've learned not what I can remember being said in class.

    As far as standards go, I've never got less then an A in any B&M class I've attended which I can not say for DL. I have several B & B+ in some of the harder classes. Had I been in a B&M class and been able to study notes on exactly what would be covered on the tests I feel I would have been able to pull A's in these classes.

    In my case I work much harder in my DL classes then I ever did in my B&M classes.
     
  17. lloyddobbler

    lloyddobbler New Member

    I did my first 90 credits via B&M colleges and over the past 18 months I've done about 20 credits via TESC online classes (3 credits to go... woohoo!)... and I think that it all depends on the student.
    Most really young students (right out of H.S.), in my opinion, would benefit from at least starting out in a B&M institution because they'd be able to transition from high school to college in a way that is somewhat familiar, with visible teachers and classmates. When I graduated at 18 I was a decent student but a poor studier... and that was fine for me in k-12, but semi-disasterous in college. I got through most of my classes, but my grades were initially low and I struggled a lot because I tried to glide through college classes like I glided through k-12.

    Fast forward a decade or so and after 5 years of no school I decided to finish up via online classes. I don't know why it took so long for me to "get it" but as an older student I was from day one, intent on staying ahead in my studies and my classwork, so while I had to work hard, it hasn't been a struggle (except for statistics... I hate f%$king statistics!!!).

    One thing about distance education that I really like is that I have actually read pretty much every word of every chapter that has been assigned, whereas in B&M school with the instructor/professor lecturing twice a week, I often neglected the text books and relied on my notes. In the end I think I have been getting more out of my distance classes than I ever did from my B&M classes... although that could just be maturity making me appreciate the stuff more though.

     
  18. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    Matt,

    I guess it depends on what you mean by superior. Part of the issue of which is superior for any given individual will depend on their learning style. With a bricks and mortar degree program, it can be much too easy to just go to class, place buttocks on wood, watch the talking head at the front of the room, and simply regurgitate what was said upon the exam. Distance learning, on the other hand, requires the self-discipline to actually read the book. In terms of learning styles, the auditory learner might do better with B & M, while one who doesn't necessarily need the auditory stimulation might do perfectly well with DL. One of the ways to get the auditory stimulation in DL would be videotapes or streaming audio, which would be just perfect for music classes. For science programs, one might set up a situation in which the university helps several students in a given area rent lab space from a relevant area scientific/technological business. In many cases, I would think employers would admire your self-discipline for getting your degree the hard way, by DL.
     
  19. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    Ted - While I don't have any serious disagreement with what you've posted, I also recognize that with just a bit of spin I could reverse the entire statement. Such as:

    "With a DL degree program it can be much too easy to sign in to the online discussion, go get a cup of coffee, watch a little Sponge Bob, come back and look at the online comments, make a few nonsequitur postings to show that I was there, skim the text and then pump the class leaders by email on their ideas about the exam."

    B&M style learning is no guarantee that the student's heart is in it, but neither is DL. How many stories have we heard about the MBA students at U of P that ride the coattails of their energetic (ethical) colleagues? Mediocrity flourishes everywhere. Let's not misrepresent.
    Jack
     
  20. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    I agree that this is a good thread and some asute observations and good experiential info has been presented. Jack is correct that the original question is very general and he has identified the reason why.

    Matt, your college teacher friend probably appreciates the fact that in order to back up his hypothesis that brick & mortar classroom learning is inherently superior to distance learning, he would have to demonstrate that the variance in the achievement of students between DL and B&M would have to be greater that the variance of student achievement within DL and within B&M. Comparison studies of mediated learning vs. lecture-based classroom learning since the 1920s has resulted, most often, in findings of "no significant difference" (as has been reported by other posters on this thread).

    While DL opponents (and many supporters) have rightly pointed out that many media comparison studies have been flawed, they can point to NO body of research that supports the idea that people learn significantly worse at a distance. Your friend is entitled to his opinion, but you are entitled to call him on the table to try to justify it. After all, would your fiend award full credit to his students if they turn in assignments with unsubstantiated statements such as his?

    Tony Piña
    Administrator, Northeastern Illinois University
     

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