University of Phoenix labelled a diploma mill

The handful of colleges that offer four-year degrees are guarding their collective turf like a pack of rabid dogs. I can understand a diploma mill like the University of Phoenix viewing the bill as a threat to their bottom line, but real colleges? Granted, education dollars are tight, but this bill is aimed at providing services to students poorly served by the state's public four-year universities.

http://www.asuwebdevil.com/issues/2005/04/12/opinions/692841

Cheers,

George

 

Wow,

I'm not even going to go there with this one...thanks for the article George,

 

Wow, UoP may be many things but it's not a diploma mill. I hope UoP straightens this guy out. Not good for distance learning to be labling the largest RA DL school a diploma mill. What does that say about all the little DL schools out there?

 

All we want are the facts, ma'am

Mr. Davis needs to verify his facts before publishing nonsense like this.

 

Yes he does, I am not surpised though, I have had to combat opinions like this several times, and it usually ends up the same way; many people that come from traditional academia see non-traditional (especially for-profit) schools as inferior, or what they think are "diploma mills," and they don't understand what a diploma mill really is. The funniest thing is, we have 3 officers with degrees from Arizona State Schools:

Daniel Bacchus

Mr. Bachus has been with Apollo Group, Inc. since August 2000. Mr. Bachus is the Chief Accounting Officer and Controller of Apollo Group, Inc. From 1992 to 2000, Mr. Bachus was employed by Deloitte & Touche LLP, most recently as an Audit Senior Manager. Mr. Bachus received his B.S. in Accountancy from the University of Arizona and is a Certified Public Accountant.

Bob Barker (hahah, I know the name is funny)

Mr. Barker has been with University of Phoenix since 1986. Mr. Barker has served as Executive Vice-President of the University since May 2000 and as Senior Vice-President of Apollo Group, Inc. since May 2003. From 1996 to 2000 he was the Regional Vice-President of the University’s Southeastern Region. From 1995 to 1996 he was Vice-President of the Florida campuses and from 1993 to 1995 he was the Campus Vice-President/Director for the Northern California campuses. From 1989 to 1993 he served first as the Director of Enrollment for the University’s San Diego campus and then at the University’s Northern California campuses. Prior to that, Mr. Barker was an Enrollment Advisor at the Phoenix campus. Mr. Barker received his M.B.A. from University of Phoenix and a Bachelor of Science in Real Estate from Arizona State University.

John R. Norton III has been a director of Apollo Group, Inc. since March 1997, is the Chairman of the Compensation Committee and a member of the Audit Committee of the Board of Directors of Apollo Group, Inc. Mr. Norton founded the J. R. Norton Company, an agricultural producer, in 1955, and engaged in diversified agriculture including crop production and cattle feeding. He served as the Deputy Secretary of the U.S. Department of Agriculture in 1985 and 1986. Mr. Norton is also on the Board of Directors of Shamrock Foods, Inc., a foodservice distributor and dairy. He attended Stanford University and the University of Arizona where he received a Bachelor of Science in Agriculture in 1950.

 

Come on guys, this is an anthropology student, not someone who we would necessarily expect to know anything about subjects that those of us who frequent Degreeinfo love (such as "what is a diploma mill?"). This is a moderately informed student writing on his school newspaper's website. Heck, as misinformed as this student is, his article is positively scholarly compared to some of the junk that I read in college newspapers.

Tony Pina
University Administrator

 

I agree....this quote from the article says it all:

 

I sent this young man an e-mail. I'll post whatever he responds back.

He is young, and obviously has little experience in distance education.

 

I hope Mr. Davis knows a good lawyer. The worst thing about misinformation like this is that it gets quoted and becomes "fact." I know of people who have been successfully sued for misinformation posted on the web in chat rooms, not just in online newspapers. BTW Mr. Brown, I know you have nothing to worry about, being in Australia anyway, but it would have helped if you had put the quotation in quotation marks. At first, I thought it was a statement by you.

 

Let it Die

Geeezzzz - it's Az. State School Paper........the more you talk about it here, the more it will be passed on. It's not like it's a HL in the USA today.

 

I know that this might ruffle some feathers but while I agree that UoP is NOT a degree mill, they only have themselves to blame for their meager reputation. By all accounts they provide a pretty solid if less than stellar program. But, every day I am confronted by unwanted popup (or actual pop-behinds) extolling UoP Degree programs. And when I go to some prominent places on the web where online degrees are advertised, there is UoP alongside KW and other degree mills and suspect schools. Their aggressive admissions advisors (or make that sales force) comes off as UoP being the used car salesman of higher education.

So while I agree that UoP is NOT a degree mill, they have done much to run their reputation into the muck shared by those that are.

 

I wonder of this applies to a degree earned online from Arizona State University? Just checking...

 

Diploma Mill

That is from an ASU site... they are in the shadow of the University of Phoenix. In fact, ASU put up a billboard outside the UOP headquarters saying "ASU - for a real MBA" or something similar. UOP is not my cup of tea (I used to teach for them), but I do like the competition they provide more "traditional" colleges. Before UOP, it was "take the course in the middle of the day or lump it... we could care less you work for a living." Now, most traditional universities are seeing the light and offering programs with their students in mind.

 

JoAnnP38,
I agree. UoP has terrible web adverting. They contract their web advertising out to third party firms, most are horrible. Neon flashy stuff, who would pick such a thing? I really wish they would clean up their web presence.
Education at UoP is what you make of it ... you could skate or really dig in and learn. I had some really great professors and some really lousy ones too.
Sometimes I wish I had done a state program (mainly from a cost perspective).

What floors me now is the cost. When I finished my last UoP masters class it was $1780 - for one class!
With my IEEE discount, my Capitol classes are right at $1000 and I can comfortably say the quality of education is much better (interaction, lectures, text books, medium, etc).

-S

 

I agree with you, JoAnn. The old adage that "if you (UoP) roam with wild dogs (KWE) you should expect to catch some fleas" comes immediately to mind. Shady and questionable business practices, in my view, are unbecoming of high-quality institutions and programs of higher education.

Thanks for mentioning the quality and academic importance of mandatory faculty-student interaction, both in complete DL programs (synchronously or asynchronously) and in traditional (B&M) programs.

Advocates for legitimate accreditation and DL QA mechanisms must be gratified that the USDoE's Third Report To Congress on the Distance Education Demonstration Program emphasizes this same interactivity requirement.

The report also recommends a stronger DL and online quality assurance program and monitoring oversight while at the same time arguing for increasing Title IV financial assistance as well as broader DL non-traditional education access. This will benefit more students, especially working adults and demographically under-represented population segments.

Speaking of the topic du jour, UoP, it is of course, nowhere near a diploma mill. It does enforce some mandatory and required faculty-student interaction. However, UoP's almost-desperate marketing and advertising schemes which are similar to the deliberate net-ads over-saturation methods of unwonderful schools (like KWE), may be due to the increasing pressure it is facing in the marketplace, for new enrollees.

Pages 5-7 of the USDoE report cited above (and elsewhere in other Degreeinfo posts) contain some interesting recent enrollment data for several DL schools.

UoP appears have the advantage in sheer raw numbers of enrolled and active learners but the rate of growth at UoP pales in comparison to the rates of recent enrollment growth at AIU, KaplanU, WaldenU, WGU, and even UMUC. See the Table posted below, credit to USDoE.

Interesting.
Thanks.

==========================================
Annual Percentage Increase in DE Program Enrollments – All Participants

Participant
1998-99 to 1999-00
1999-00 to 2000-01
2000-01 to 2001-02
2001-02 to 2002-03
2002-03 to 2003-04

American InterContinental Univ 2940% 650% 119%
Brevard Community College 12%
Capella University 75% 52% 83% 73% 41%
College of Court Reporting 42%
Community Colleges of Colorado 194% 70%
CT Distance Learning Consortium 41% 78% 44% 6% N/A
Eastern Oregon University 7% 20% N/A
Florida State University 198% -54%
Franklin University 543% 119% 76% 57% 52%
Graceland University 0%
JesuitNET Consortium 0%
Jones International University 28%
Kaplan University 408% 216% 882% 326% 50%
LDS Church Education System 750% 363% 39% 23% 22%
Marlboro College 21% 0% 153%
Masters Institute 442%
National Technological University 20%
New York University 172% 40% 8%
Northcentral University 32%
North Dakota University System 39% 53% 35% 56% 8%
Regis University 41% 26% 58%
Texas Tech University -25% 35% 121% 16%
University of Phoenix 85% 66% 45%
United States Sports Academy 3% 34% 47%
Walden University 243% 114% 93%
Washington State University 10% 18% 30% 3% N/A
Wash. Community & Tech Colleges 239% 48% 39% 33%
Western Governors University 407% 14% 152% 60% 149%

Source: "Third Report To Congress on the Distance Education Demonstration Program," USDoE, April 2005.

 

Now this guy is an old school.

In the past traditional education unofficially regards some fully accredited non traditional schools as Diploma Mills.

I don't share this view but one should talk to an old professor
in B&M long established school.

They don't hold non traditional education in very high regard unless it is provided by one of the name recognized traditional schools such as Columbia, Harvard etc.

An extreme comment like this was not as rare as its now.

I will not provide names but an old professor in very very respected university in new England thinks that educational standards of so called DL providers are dumbing down - sell out.
He told me that his colleagues and him don’t take seriously the institutions such as UoP, AIU etc and prefer to work with professors from schools of higher academic standing.


I disagree.

Learner

 

University of Phoenix

I have taken classes at UOP and B&M schools. UOP is not a mill. All the classes required work and effort to pass just like the B&M classes.

It is people like him that complained about the horse-less carriage when it first came out.

 

Re: University of Phoenix

Well I never took classes there so it's good to hear that they are on the apropriate level.

My good friends wife graduated from Cal State with BA in Psychology and she got MA in Psychology from National University.

Once over a dinner in their home she comented that CSU required more work for BA degree and that it was on higher standard than NU.

So it depends who you talk to.

Overall she was happy with her NU degree.

Learner

 

Please name (or cite) 'em.

 

A reply to the ASU Web Devil

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregg L. DesElms" <gregg@[redacted].com>
··To: "Letters to the Editor" <[email protected]>
··cc: "ASU Web Devil Staff" <[email protected]>
··cc: "Christopher T. Davis" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 11:15 AM
Subj: Christopher Davis and Diploma Mills

• -- FOR PUBLICATION --

In his commentary "Beneficial college bill wrongly halted," published on April 12, 2005, Christopher Davis wrote: "I can understand a diploma mill like the University of Phoenix viewing the bill as a threat to their bottom line, but real colleges?"

• SEE: http://www.asuwebdevil.com/issues/2005/04/12/opinions/692841

While I am no fan (or an employee, student, agent, or alum) of University of Phoenix, Mr. Davis's characterization of it as a "diploma mill" is simply not true; and said characterization does a grave disservice to both University of Phoenix and, more importantly, any students who avail themselves of whatever that school has to offer, or any employers to whom said students may one day present their credentials therefrom.

A diploma mill, by definition, is an institution (and I use the word "institution," here, lightly) that issues a completely bogus diploma or degree -- sometimes even including faked transcripts and even a toll-free number where prospective employers may "verify" the credential -- for a fee; and, most importantly, requiring little or no work on the part of the so-called "student." Nothing new to the world of education, diploma mills have been around almost since the founding of this nation; and in the day of the parents and grandparents of the students reading these words, said nefarious "institutions" advertised themselves on the backs of matchbook covers or in small ads in the backs of magazines and any number of other publications. Today diploma mills are thriving on the Internet with impressive-looking -- and wholly disingenuous and deceiving -- web sites intended to make visitors believe that they are legitimate and, moreover, to separate them from their money. Typically, the only thing that one who wishes to obtain a credential from a diploma mill must do is write a check... and write checks they do. Diploma mills are a multi-billion-dollar business. Some of their "students" really have been scammed and are victims of ignorance; but most of them, I dare say, are willing participants in the deception... foisting their fake degrees onto potential employers and others in the hope that no one will notice. It is difficult to get through a week without some newspaper, news service, or television or radio news outlet doing a story about someone with bogus diploma mill credentials being found out. When those who are presented with such bogus credentials do not carefully verify them, diploma mills hurt people by allowing the unworthy to gain undeserved employment, higher pay, positions of responsibility, or even entry into legitimate degree programs.

I applaud those who single-out and call the world's attention to diploma mills. I am a longtime foe of such nefarious enterprises and their criminal owner-operators. A Google search on my name will reveal no small number of anti-diploma mill public comments by me, as well as the vicious counter attacks of the diploma mill operators who don't like having their illegal activities exposed. So I urge Mr. Davis to keep calling diploma mills exactly what they are; but I caution him to make sure he's not unfairly mislabeling legitimate institutions along the way.

The private and for-profit University of Phoenix (UOP) is, by no stretch of the imagination, a "diploma mill." Notwithstanding the things about it which we may not like, UOP is regionally-accredited by an agency approved by the U.S. Department of Education (USDE) and its Council for Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA)... just the same as is Arizona State University. If that imprimatur is good enough to give ASU its credibility, and if it is to mean anything as an indicator to employers and registrars of any institution's credibility and legitimacy, then it must be respected as proof positive that UOP is most certainly not a diploma mill. It is true that UOP offers much of its coursework -- and even entire degrees -- using the distance learning delivery method; and it's equally true that diploma mills call what they offer "distance learning" as well. Because of this, some people mistakenly equate the general area of distance learning with diploma mills or, if not, then mistakenly view it as a substandard means of acquiring knowledge. Perhaps Mr. Davis made that mistake; and, if so, then he is probably to be forgiven for it since many before him have also stepped into that same trap. It is, after all, an easy thing about which to become confused.

For that reason I wanted to write to the Web Devil and make sure that it's readers know and understand that all its faults, whatever they may be, notwithstanding, neither University of Phoenix, nor its distance learning programs, are part of, or have anything whatsoever to do with, a "diploma mill" or a "degree mill" entity. UOP's courses and degrees -- at least as far as USDE and/or CHEA is concerned -- are as legitimate as Arizona State University's. While we can argue relative quality beyond that, as a practical matter, UOP's regional accreditation settles the part of the argument that might characterize it as a "diploma mill." Like it or not, that's just a fact.

________________________
Gregg L. DesElms
gregg@[redacted].com

- 30 -