Is a Big 3 degree suitable to get me into Library School?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by jennstall, Apr 6, 2005.

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  1. jennstall

    jennstall New Member

    Hello All,

    I'm currently considering enrolling at one of the Big 3 schools in order to finish off my bachelor's degree as quickly as possible, and then I'd like to apply to an MLS/MLIS Master's Program so I can become a Librarian. From running searchs, I know that several folks on this forum are Librarians and I'm wondering if any of you got your Bachelor's degree from a DL college and if so, did you have any difficulties getting into your Master's program or have questions come up during hiring interviews?

    Just a little background:

    I currently have 89 credits from UMass/Boston. Last time I attended there was back in the late 80s and now I live in California. I've actually completed all of my Major work in English Lit., but had always avoided taking my Math & Sciences gen. ed. requirements. So now I'm thinking the best bet would be to just test out on the rest of my requirements. I figure I could be done by my 40th birthday in October if I get cracking.

    I've already attempted to talk to UMass about just transferring CLEP credits there, but UMass changes gen. ed. requirements as often as some people change underwear and I just don't want to deal with the hassle. The other problem is that one of my mandatory lower level classes for my Major at UMass is a class I have two F's on and you can only repeat a course once. (I didn't fail because I'm dumb, I failed because I have ADD and put off Withdrawing from classes I wasn't bothering to attend until it was far too late.)

    Now, this leads me to my other question -- I know that you can suppress certain courses from your Excelsior, etc. transcripts and that they don't transfer in Failed classes anyway, but every website I've looked at for Master's programs, the Admission requirements say that ALL transcripts from any school attended must be turned in, not just the place you got your actual degree from. So how does it really help suppressing the mediocre grades on the Excelsior transcript if I have to send them my UMass transcripts anyway (with at least one whole semester of F's!? Any thoughts?

    Thanks for your time,

    Jennifer
     
  2. William H. Walters

    William H. Walters New Member

    I can't say for certain, of course, but I suspect that a nontraditional bachelor's degree would be no barrier whatsoever to admission for an MLS. As I understand it, MLS admissions committees are looking for a decent GPA and either (a) breadth of studies or (b) study in a subject field that's currently in demand within the library profession (natural sciences, business, etc.). Evidence of maturity and long-term dedication to a career goal certainly wouldn't hurt, either.

    Frankly, most MLS programs are not especially difficult to get into. Scholarship money =is= hard to find, but I don't think a nontraditional bachelor's would be a problem in that regard, either. My own BA was a three-year, 90-credit program that essentially gave one year's credit for test results, and that has never been a problem (as far as I know) in any subsequent admissions decision. I've never had anyone ask about it.
     
  3. Tireman44

    Tireman44 member

    I received on my undergrad degrees from a DL institution and that did not keep me from getting into library school. I echo Mr Walters on every point that he made. I didnt find library school that difficult to get into. I do wish you luck in the job market. I know in Texas it is quite rough( look at the Texas Library Association website, www.txla.org and you will see what I mean) and it is not that friendly at this time. I think( at least NCCU did this) they look at the body of work, not just one or two particular grades. My undergrad GPA was 3.1, so I wouldnt worry that much. By the way, which library school are you thinking about attending? Good luck to you.
     
  4. jennstall

    jennstall New Member

    Thank you both for your responses. That really helps me firm up my decision to get those tests done and graduate. :)

    Tireman, I'm thinking about San Jose, mainly because they have an offsite facility at Fullerton which isn't ridiculously far from Los Angeles. But I might also look into some of the 100% DL options as well. I need to do a lot more research though. I have to think about concentrations and what would both interest me and serve me well career-wise. Any thoughts on that score are welcome.

    As for employment, the City of Los Angeles is always hiring librarians for the City Public Libraries. It has been on their Hot Jobs list for as long as I can remember. I currently work for the City of LA in a different department and my seniority points applied to any promotional exam results might help balance out the fact that I don't currently work in a library. My technical background should help too. The money isn't huge, but it is a decent jump up from what I'm making now. The City of LA has pretty decent salaries compared to lots of other city govts, but then you do have to take cost of living into account.

    Thanks again for your help!
     
  5. Tireman44

    Tireman44 member

    For 3/4 of my MLS education, I attended UNT( www.unt.edu) and it served me just well. Distance learning in library science is quite applicable and many people that I worked with at Houston Public Library finished their education this way. University of North Texas has extensions in Minnesota and Nevada if memory serves. They recruit at HPL all the time. I earned my MLS because my MA in history just wont cut it in the real world. I dont have the technical background that many librarians have, just the research skills. I found at HPL that politics ruined my stay there. I met some great people, but the end runs and backbiting was just too much for me. I am not down on my library career( I am a librarian at NASA), it is just that I probably wont go back into the public arena again. I have heard good things about Los Angeles Public Library, so good luck in that venture. There are some states in which you have to take a public library certification test( I believe that is what you are referring to) , but Texas is not one of them. I am afraid I am not much help on that one. I would shop around library schools and decide which best suits your needs.
     
  6. jennstall

    jennstall New Member

    I bet working for NASA must be very interesting. I'm not sure Public Libraries is ultimately what I want to be doing either, but Los Angeles Public Library seems like a good place to start until I at least get some experience.

    The exam I'm taking is a civil service exam. All full-time employees with the City take one. I had to take one for my first job with the City, Clerk-Typist and then took another one for my promotion, Senior Clerk-Typist. Once you pass, your name goes on a list and when your score comes up you interview directly with the employing department.

    I'll check out UNT for sure. One advantage of Cal State is LAPL is one of the libraries that has internships for the practicum and in city employment, knowing people really helps. It would be a good way for me to get to know people.

    How do practicums/internships work when you do a distance degree? Does the school have local contacts throughout the country or is it up to the student to do all the legwork?
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I have to echo the sentiments of tireman and the good Doctor. I too have my MLS (MS LIS actually) and I attended FSU almost totally by distance learning.

    A desire to be a librarian, a 3.0 and a GRE of ~1000 should get you into library school.

    Do know however that there is no librarian shortage, and any predicted shortage is simply nonsense. The ALA has been predicting a shortage for decades.

    Being a librarian in a public library can be very frustrating with the petty politics and backstabbing that go on. It reminds me of a fourth grade class sometimes. On the bright side at least half of the people you work with will be bright, articulate people. The others you will just have to endure.


    Good luck and I hope you enjoy the profession should you get your MLS.
     
  8. marilynd

    marilynd New Member

    Not to be too flippant, but a testament from a good dead horse should get you into a library school.

    Library schools do differ somewhat in their prestige and selectivity, but there are so many DL programs out there that being able to breathe free air and a bachelor's degree in hand should do it. Enrollments in the recent past have been declining. A third or so of library schools have closed over the past fifteen years.

    Getting into a particular program might be an issue. Getting into a program shouldn't be.

    I wouldn't be too concerned about the Big 3 in this regard, particularly since so many of your credits come from UMass.

    Good luck in your endeavors.

    :)

    marilynd
     
  9. Tireman44

    Tireman44 member

    Again Marlinyd was precise and to the point. I echo everything she said. The public library scene was rewarding to a point. I learned to refine my reference interviews to where there wasnt much extra fat to them( You will learn about the art of the "Reference Interview") and the limitless ways a reference librarian can read children's stories( long long story). I did have fun lining up acts to entertain the kids and making contacts within HPL. The backbiting, childish, he said/she said, name-calling I perfer to live without. Many students network at conferences( Texas Library Association this past April in Austin) or just look on job sites run by different schools( I am member of the UNT and UT listservs). Have fun in library school. It can be rewarding. I think that the librarians on the board will agree with me...you get out of it what you put into it.
     
  10. dcv

    dcv New Member

    Additionally, you might check and see if the school where you got a semester of F's has an academic clemency program. Often, if you apply for clemency, you can get an entire semester or two expunged from your transcript. It's worth a shot.
     
  11. marilynd

    marilynd New Member

    I cannot let mdoneil's comments pass by unprotested.

    We have had this discussion before on this board. I suspect that Dr. Walters and tireman44 will back me up on this.

    It simply makes no sense to make these blanket statements about there not being a shortage of librarians. To read mdoneil's posts, you would think that all librarians are public librarians (read: public reference librarians). I don't want to put anyone down here. Public librarians serve a valuable need in public education, but in terms of necessary skills, public librarians, like school librarians, are the lowest common denominator in librarianship. It is not surprising that there is no shortage of librarians--if this is true--in the public service sectors of public libraries.

    However, librarianship is far broader than simply public libraries: law, health services, corporate, art, archives and special collections, and a wide variety of academic specialties. Within all of these, including public, there is technical services. Now, in many of these areas there absolutely IS a labor shortage. There is not only a shortage of catalogers, for instance, but a threatening shortage of catalogers that know metadata schemes other than MARC. There is a huge problem finding systems librarians that have both the technical IT skills and MLS training in how a library is run.

    To use mdoneil's term, the message being sent to this board that there is no shortage of librarians is "simply nonsense."

    I have been in librarianship a long time, and I have never experienced the kind of petty politics and backstabbing that mdoneil describes; that is, beyond the normal office stuff. That is not to say that it doesn't go on, but I would not take it as the norm.

    I would encourage you to pursue your library studies. It can be a rewarding profession. Talk to your professors. Find out where the general needs are. Specific needs may vary by locale, and if you're in a DL program, your professors may not have access to this information. But every state, I think, has a state library association, which will have a Web site with job listings that you can look at.

    Good luck.

    marilynd
     
  12. William H. Walters

    William H. Walters New Member

    I agree entirely with marilynd.

    I suspect that there is no single job market for librarians. Instead, there are several different job markets that match particular types of libraries and particular areas of specialization. That is, the people who apply for directorships at public library branches are not the same people who apply for subject bibliographer positions at major universities. Both positions would require an MLS as well as a commitment to the same basic principles, but the two jobs would be very dissimilar in terms of skills required, most important personality characteristics, etc.

    I'd recommend that you take a look at the October 2004 issue of =Library Journal,= which shows placement rates and basic salary information for new graduates of each MLS program. That will also give you an idea which schools emphasize particular areas/types of librarianship.

    I suspect that there's no shortage of reference librarians, but there probably =are= shortages of qualified librarians in other areas.

    A real-life example: An entry-level reference position at a major university. Nearly 70 applicants, about half of whom meet the minimum requirements for the position.

    Another: A map librarian / GIS position at a small liberal arts college. About 30 applicants, only 2 of whom are qualified for the position by their previous education, experience, etc.

    In these examples, the reference librarian had better be pretty special if he expects to get the job. (Even in that case, I don't think a nontraditional BA would necessarily be a disadvantage.) On the other hand, the map librarian may be able to choose among several offers.
     
  13. marilynd

    marilynd New Member

    Excellent examples, Dr. Walters.

    I love real life examples.

    ;)

    marilynd
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    There is indeed a shortage of Farsi speaking librarians, GIS librarians, librarians with an in depth knowledge of agronomic taxonomy, but I don't see new library school grads being qualified for those jobs.

    There is no shortage of librarians; there may be incidental shortages of highly qualified, highly specialized, or greatly experienced librarians. If you want to paint a rosy picture (the ALA will help I'm sure) go right ahead.

    I became a public librarian because that was the only job open in my area that paid a living wage. Not a great wage but a living wage. I have applied, and continue to apply to positions that I think will fit my skills, but as yet the few offers I receive would cost me money after relocation. Not that I am unqualified as I have > 12 years of experience as an RN and graduate degrees in Chemistry (MSChem) and business (MBA) as well.

    So while I may be able to be a bit selective I can't afford to move to NYC for $46.5K or Indiana for 38K.

    Sure there are openings in law, special collections, archives, medical libraries, and the like but those are not for new grads, and we do them a disservice to suggest otherwise.


    N.B. The new director of Atlanta-Fulton is a former map librarian and he gets >$100K, so a good librarian can make a good living, but with the 48 library schools cranking out 100 (or pick a number of graduates with which you feel comfortable) librarians per year there are 4800 librarians and I don't see 4800 entry level positions opening. Look at http://floridalibraryjobs.com if you doubt me. Florida has 2 library schools and there are few if any openings for new grads on the State Library jobs site.

    I won't whitewash what a new grad can expect: a public library job that while offering growth and experience will offer neither a great salary nor an optimal professional environment.
     
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Indeed they do ALA List of Library Associations or you can go to Library Job Postings or LisJobs (of course I know that because I'm a lowly public reference librarian :> )

    On another note don't mistake my realism for cynicism nor my pragmatism for pessimism. I do think you will enjoy being a librarian; it can very well be a rewarding career. You will probably not get rich nor famous, but you can enjoy a rewarding profession helping people.
     
  16. marilynd

    marilynd New Member

    mdoneil:

    If you think the above statement is true, then your view of the profession is pretty parochial and very skewed.

    New graduates do not have to join public libraries first and then work their way up, as the above quotation suggests. Many new graduates are hired directly into academic, law, hospital, and corporate libraries. Public libraries are not good training grounds for other types of libraries, just like a corporate librarian would not be aware of many of the processes and procedures of public libraries, unless they had taken courses in public librarianship.

    This idea that entry-level librarians have to start with public libraries and only work into specialist libraries after gaining experience is farsical. If that were the case, then virtually no one would become a corporate librarian because public libraries do not teach these skills. You start with taking courses in corporate librarianship in library school and then look for positions in the corporate sector, usually through the Special Libraries Association.

    Especially in these times, library schools tend to offer concentrations as well as general library education: health informatics, corporate, archives, law, etc. I have no interest or desire to speculate about why you became a public librarian. Each individual's situation is different. However, with an RN and two related graduate degrees, you did not have to settle for being a public librarian just because it is the beginning of the track. It is NOT the beginning of the track.

    I am nearly within shouting distance of two library schools. I am the alumnus of one and sit on one of its advisory boards. I am intimately connected with the workings of the other. I see, year in and year out, where these graduates find employment, and that is in virtually all types of libraries.

    It is good that you do not want to whitewash. You should take equal care to not give out erroneous information.

    Have a nice day.

    marilynd
     
  17. Abner

    Abner Well-Known Member

    Librarians

    I have to agree with you Marilynd. While I am not a Librarian, I do know it is a very good field to work in. If you do work in the public sector, you receive a fairly good salary, usually complimented by a generous benefits package. Sometimes, individuals only look at the salary, without considering some benefits packages can be worth between $6,000. - $10,000.00

    As far as the corporate library side, I am sure it would be quite lucrative as well.

    Just a few comments,

    Good luck in your pursuits,

    I wish you the best!

    Abner :)
     
  18. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Originally posted by marilynd


    mdoneil:


    New graduates do not have to join public libraries first and then work their way up, as the above quotation suggests.


    I never said that. I'm surprised you read that into what I said. New librarians have to start somewhere and work their way up and often it is in public librarianship due to the ubiquity of public libraries.

    This idea that entry-level librarians have to start with public libraries and only work into specialist libraries after gaining experience is farsical <sic>.

    Again, I never even suggested that. I was prepared to begin at a medical library but due to a hospital merger and the consolidation of the staff of two libraries the position I was to take after graduation was eliminated.

    If that were the case, then virtually no one would become a corporate librarian because public libraries do not teach these skills. You start with taking courses in corporate librarianship in library school and then look for positions in the corporate sector, usually through the Special Libraries Association.

    I fail to see how the mechanics of librarianship, such as an effective reference interview, or collection development differ in one library setting from another. Yes the subject matter may differ, but to say that public libraries don't teach skills applicable in corporate libraries is absurd.

    Especially in these times, library schools tend to offer concentrations as well as general library education: health informatics, corporate, archives, law, etc. I have no interest or desire to speculate about why you became a public librarian.

    I already explained why I became a public librarian; it was the only position local to me that paid a living wage.

    Each individual's situation is different. However, with an RN and two related graduate degrees, you did not have to settle for being a public librarian just because it is the beginning of the track. It is NOT the beginning of the track.

    Again, I never said that public librarianship was the beginning of the track. It is simply one of many career options for those with library science degrees.

    I am nearly within shouting distance of two library schools. I am the alumnus of one and sit on one of its advisory boards. I am intimately connected with the workings of the other. I see, year in and year out, where these graduates find employment, and that is in virtually all types of libraries.

    I too, am quite close to the two library schools in my state. I find one turns out woefully unprepared librarians -just judging from the graduates of the school with whom I have worked. The other my alma mater I feel turns out much more qualified graduates but of course I am biased in that regard.

    It is good that you do not want to whitewash. You should take equal care to not give out erroneous information.

    I fail to see what erroneous information I have given out. My main points were:

    1) Librarians are not in short supply
    2) Librarians are not paid in proportion to what other graduate degree holders are.
    3) Librarianship can be a rewarding career.

    I really fail to see how anyone can disagree with those points. Certainly there are librarians that are paid quite well, ask James Billington. Certainly there are specialist librarians who are in high demand. High demand occurs in any profession; I am sure there are more opportunities for Admiralty lawyers than new grads and more need for cardiothoracic surgeons than newly minted MDs. However comparing apples to apples one must see that new graduates with MLS degrees will not find recruiters milling about on their doorstep.

    I really fail to see why you seem to hold public librarians in such disregard. I am a public librarian because there was a public library position open near me. That does not mean that I will always be a public librarian, however the knowledge, skills, and abilities that I gain as a public librarian will certainly benefit the patrons of any other type of library in which I may be employed.


    -Matthew
     
  19. Tireman44

    Tireman44 member

    [I fail to see what erroneous information I have given out. My main points were:

    1) Librarians are not in short supply
    2) Librarians are not paid in proportion to what other graduate degree holders are.
    3) Librarianship can be a rewarding career.

    I really fail to see how anyone can disagree with those points. Certainly there are librarians that are paid quite well, ask James Billington. Certainly there are specialist librarians who are in high demand. High demand occurs in any profession; I am sure there are more opportunities for Admiralty lawyers than new grads and more need for cardiothoracic surgeons than newly minted MDs. However comparing apples to apples one must see that new graduates with MLS degrees will not find recruiters milling about on their doorstep.

    I really fail to see why you seem to hold public librarians in such disregard. I am a public librarian because there was a public library position open near me. That does not mean that I will always be a public librarian, however the knowledge, skills, and abilities that I gain as a public librarian will certainly benefit the patrons of any other type of library in which I may be employed.

    I agree with what you have to say Matthew. Librarianship is and can be a rewarding profession. Are they adequately paid? Absolutely not. Not on the whole they are not. For example, my wife with a MA in Counseling is making 48k a year working for the county education department. I, with a MLS and MA , am making 31K a year as a librarian at NASA. Look at the starting salaries for public libraries. It is pitiful. Another point, I have tried to crack the academic side of librarianship( I even have a contact at UH) and after 7 tries.....nothing. Public librarianship, or so I have found, is a little easier to get into. I agree with Marylin as well. Librarians are the lot that are needed,but not appreciated to a certain extent. Or it seems to me. My MA in history is worth less than my MLS. That is a fact. I wish it were different, but alas it is not.

    -Matthew [/B][/QUOTE]
     
  20. Tireman44

    Tireman44 member

    Abner,

    I am not questioning, just wondering...where are the 6,000 to 10, 000 benefits packages that public librarians have available to them. I worked at Houston Public Library for 1 1/2 years and I never saw packages such at those. If you can find it, tell me so I can tell my former colleagues. I have two former librarians who have been with HPL and are making 36 K while being there 23 years. Could you tell me what cities have these packages?
     

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