Age worries (doctorate)

Dear friends,
I have a rather personal concern that might also be interesting for other board members, and thus hopefully result in a vital discussion...

Here's my question:
I know that being a German, we are rather old coming out of our educational lifes. We have (so far, though beginning to change)

• 13 years of school (age 19 at the end)
• about 1 year of military duty (age 20 at the end),
• and a deep structural problem in our university system (not saying that the quality of German education is bad - it is not at all, it's actually still competitible with any other in the world, if admittedly maybe not with US ivy league schools), resulting in the average university graduant being 28 years old with his "Diploma" (comparable to a Master's degree, formally 9 semesters of study time, in reality at least 12-14 semesters due to the mentioned structural problems),
• when even doing a doctorate on top (only allowed for Diploma/Master's graduates, not for Bachelor's, like in the U.K., for example), that takes another 1-2 years (in Jurisprudence) or even (no kidding) 3-5 years (in Economics/Business Administration). The result is (and I'll be talking about Economics/Business Admin. further on, since that is my subject): a Germany-wide average age of 32 years, becoming a Ph.D. in Business Admin.

That's the way it is - sad, but true. Okay, admitted, we also have high-flyers becoming a Dr. in their end-twenties, but it's certainly a lot more realistic to have the 3 as the first digit in the end...

My special case is similar, though I do hold (thanks to you guys, also) some more qualifications by now (becoming 31 this year) - so did I just complete my DL Master's from the University of Southern Queensland on top of my German diploma, and another (B&M) Master's from a Dutch school. If anything goes well, I will be 32 pursuing my doctorate (I did the USQ Master's parallel to the Ph.D. studies).

As I already told you - for Germany, that's pretty much o.k. (nothing more, nothing less). My question would now moreover be: how competitive would I be with this qualification (I furthermore worked 2 years in my own start-up company and held lectures at university for 3 semesters) in other countries? (especially in the UK and the US), respectively: how old would one be with a similar qualification in these countries? (talking about the age of my 'competitors' on the job market?).

I'm asking for both, academia and business positions... (I'd like to stay in academia becoming a full-time tenured professor one day, but the chances here in Germany are not too well, so industry also always is an alternative).

I am looking forward to your answers very much.
Thanks and G'bye,
Trigger

 

Hi Trigger,

I think age is becoming less of an issue in the corporate world these days. We're really seeing a definite shift to a protean career track, and mention of entire career shifts in the late 30's-early 40's doesn't really raise an eyebrow anymore.

I'll be around 40 when I finish my Ph.D. (I'm on leave from my program right now, but will be going back to it in July), and just last year started working in my new field, and see a bright future ahead. In many ways, my earlier work only enhances my career shift, and I don't feel any negativity from my career-network with regards to me being a relative "youngster" in the field.

Cheers,
Adrienne

 

I have had professors that were young 29 year old kids when they finished their PhD degrees (one was even 25) but I've also had professors that were 44 years old upon PhD completion. No biggie.

 

How old will you be if you do not pursue doctoral studies? DegreeInfo participant Bill Grover just completed the Th.D. at 64 years of age. So, 32 isn't too old..............

 

Re: Re: Age worries (doctorate)

...hm,
good argument,
but only as far as to the point where he attempts to apply for a position at university or in industry (which I am somehow not too sure about that he will... ).

 

Re: Re: Age worries (doctorate)

Good point. You can be 32 with a doctorate or 32 without one.

 

Being a german business doctorate myself - hoping to finish with 29-, I'd say that it heavily depends on what exactly you are heading for. While there always will be demand for highly qualified people for top management posisitons, from what I have experienced in the US - in analogue to this months issue of German crappy magazine Junge Karriere- the positions of educated but not leading edge middle management might get out of reach by mid 30s. As usual there will be companies that handle things differently, therefore I wouldn't worry: You need to find that one single exception, so it's less a matter of being non-competetive at a certain age but rather of having to search more intensively to get where you want at an older age.

 

Re: Re: Re: Age worries (doctorate)

...true.
and that would make the situation even a lot worse...

 

One should be financially planning towards retirement at 40 so that the doctorate done by then should not only be a career enhancement but also exercise your grey matter. At 40 I would like to have quality time to play some golf, do some academic research on the side, lecture during the weekends, travel to exotic places in China and India, enjoy art works in Bali and at the same time invest wisely.

As a financial planner getting a degree is one thing but sometimes the jobs out there don't pay well, is what you do with your assets and reap the financial and academic rewards that are the most gratifying. I love watching the Suzie Orman show on CNBC in the weekends and I think as a financial planner myself some of her tips are really pragmatic and practical.

Get real and be real.

 

Re: Re: Age worries (doctorate)

Thank you Russell. Your question is my favorite question to those who usually would like to use age as a factor for not pursuing education, any type of education. Age should never be a factor in the pursuit of any endeavor unless accompanied with debilitating disability.

oko

 

Re: Re: Re: Age worries (doctorate)

right. but trigger has already made his decision, no need to convince him. what he asks for is an assessment of his opportunities in business and academia outside central europe for the time when he will have finished his PhD in a year or two. that's a very valid and interesting question for many people in germany due to the slack domestic labor market...

cheers,
dinz

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Age worries (doctorate)

that's exactly the point -
thanks a lot, dinz (of course also to the others helping me with their comments).
I truly look forward to further discussion.
Cheers,
Trigger

 

Hi Trigger, first of all, congratulations for getting your PhD next year. 32 years old is really nothing, and I think that shouldn´t be an obstacle in your intentions. You have degrees from several countries (I think you mentioned you were a UC Berkeley student as well), which is an asset, and you also have teaching experience. That, together with paper publications, will determine your fate as many board members have constantly repeated. I lived in the US many years, and I attended several schools. All of them had a number of foreign faculty. I think an isue you may encounter is that your education is not American. Some of those people had degrees from India, China or wherever but their PhD, for instance, was from a US university. German education, however, is well known around the world as being tough and demanding so that shouldn´t be a great problem. Why don´t you just give it a shot? Send a bunch of CV´s to both the UK and the US and see where that leads. BTW, Canada is a nice country too.

Regarding industry,... I don´t really know. I have never ever seen a job advertising that required a PhD in Business. So you might be overqualified for most jobs. But a PhD degree is highly prestigious in the US, and *I think* that should open doors for you.



Good luck and keep as posted!

 

Age limitations?

Dude,

I'm 47 and have just started my PhD, so don't worry about how old you are when you start or when you finish... If it is a goal for you, then go for it!

 

Dude, Revkag is 47 and he just used the word "dude!" Just goes to show, it's not how old you are, it's how old you feel.

 

Last week (1 April) I presented a paper at an international conference (http://engr.arizona.edu/apcom/index.htm) on computers and operations research in the mineral industry. In my session, of the five presenters, one had a doctorate, and three (including myself) were working on theirs (the fourth was working on his masters). Of this three, all were over 30 (well over in my case (daughter turns 30 this year)), one was from Australia and one from Turkey.

In looking at my classmates in the courses at Colorado State, the majority of PhD students are well over 30. As with this board, I think the trend is starting to be to get your bachelors and masters early, work for a while, and then get your doctorate.

 

Actually, one should already be saving for retirement even if you're some 18 to 20 year old kid. In short, due to the time value of money (that's the fact that every shekel one saves keeps accumulating interest upon interest over the years, fot you non-business majors), all those shekels you put aside from ages 18 to 40 will eventually be worth much more than twice the number of the same number of shekels squirreled away from ages 40 to 65.

 

Thanks for your really helpful words, my friends and colleagues.

I'll take up your advice, and just try.

Cheers from Germany,
Trigger


P.S.: @JLV: yes, in Germany, there are quite many job advertisements explicitly asking for a Ph.D. degree, as e.g. the consulting firms (BCG, McK, Accenture & Co.) and the top-tier (DAX) companies searching for an assistant of one of their board members (as examples).

 

Good for you! Good luck!

 

Re: Re: Re: Age worries (doctorate)

I agree completely. Otherwise I would not be in the NCU PhD program at age 72

Bill Hurd