Is ABET Hurting Online Engineering?

Please read the following article about this significant education void.

http://www.prism-magazine.org/april03/unlocked.cfm

 

International Conference

Apparently, at the

ASEE/SEFT/TU Berlin International Colloquium

The ABET accreditation came into question when
Lyle D. Feisel of the IEEE presented a discussion titled:

"ABET Accreditation: Barrier or Bridge to Innovation"

This conference focused on distance education in engineering.

http://www.tu-berlin.de/presse/div/asee-sefi_programm.pdf

 

I just skimmed through the Prism Magazine article and I think that it's good. But it doesn't really support your rather combative thread-title.

The article takes the lab problem very seriously and devotes a lot of space to discussing it.

But engineering bachelor's degrees don't easily lend themselves to distance-learning methods. Indeed, how to give students laboratory experience is a particularly thorny problem. "Course content should drive course delivery, and engineering education (at the undergraduate level) does not lend itself to online delivery," explains Helene Demont, who oversees the engineering outreach program at the University of Wisconsin. Stanford's senior associate dean in the school of engineering, Andy DiPaolo, agrees: "An (undergraduate) engineering degree is tougher to do electronically, especially the labs."

The story actually suggests that accreditation ISN'T the main problem.

Accreditation of distance-learning degrees has not been a problem. At Michigan Tech, Iowa State, and North Dakota, the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (ABET) accredited their distance degrees as part of their overall engineering programs. That suits colleges who don't want distance degrees considered second- class. "What we do is identical. The same professors, the same courses…nothing is different. The only difference is in the delivery, and ABET is happy with that," North Dakota's Watson says.

 

Articles

The Prism article reference shows an acknowledgement of a void existing which was an issue questioned by some in this forum.

The ASEE/SEFI/TU Berlin International Colloquium reference indicates that a discussion of the ABET accreditation as a barrier is being debated within the context of the title, "Barrier or Bridge to Innovation."

It also indicates that an international discussion of this topic is taking place to address this problem.

 

Re: Articles

I agree with Bill, I have no idea how you are making the leap that ABET is in the way of DL engineering at the undergrad level. The PDF you included for the ASEE/SEFT/TU Berlin International Colloquium only listed the presenters, topics and schedule. So when someone presents a topic "ABET Accreditation: Barrier or Bridge to Innovation" how do you know that the conclusion didn't indicate that ABET was a bridge to innovation? Were you at this colloquium? Do you have the text of this topic?

 

Barrier or Bridge?

JoAnn,

I didn't say it was, I didn't say it was not innovative. I said the title indicates that an international debate is taking place that questions ABET's innovative stature as it applies to the focus of the conference which is distance education.

If ABET is so innovative then why does other countries have distance education engineering programs at the bachelors level in electronic/electrical fields and we do not?

These are questions not answers.

 

Re: Barrier or Bridge?

The answer seems obvious. American universities feel that there should be a significant "hands-on", laboratory component to an engineering bachelor's degree, and it is difficult to provide this effectively through distance education. That's why UND (which does provide an ABET-accredited distance degree in EE) requires distance students to visit the campus for labs.

This problem would exist with or without ABET. If other countries have overcome it somehow, we would be interested to know how they do it.

Universities can and do offer relevant distance degree programs that lack ABET accreditation. For example, Thomas Edison State College offers Bachelor of Science in Applied Science and Technology degrees in the fields of Electrical Technology and Electronics Engineering Technology. These degrees aren't ABET accredited, but they still have professional value.

 

Stifling Innovation

“Back in the early 1990s, ABET was criticized for being overly prescriptive in its criteria, and for stifling innovation,” says Dan Hodge, ABET’s accreditation director.

http://www.prism-magazine.org/feb03/toolbox.cfm

"Accreditation Boards for Various Professions. In a review of the websites for a range of professional accreditation boards, distance education was given only minor attention. The Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology, Inc. (ABET) certifies program-related to engineering and technology. Currently, they do not differentiate between traditional and distance delivery methods or assessments. A large portion of the programs ABET evaluates requires onsite laboratory practice that is ill-suited to distance techniques. When possible, distance delivery is worked into various components of more applicable programs. Likewise, the American Psychological Association (APA) has been slow to address the potential of employing distance education techniques. The accreditation standards created in 1996 do not reflect an inclination to acknowledge or pursue evaluation of this area. Most accreditation boards are more amenable to exploring the potential of distance education than ABET and APA." (U. Omaha, 2002)

Scarpellini,N.& Bowen, B.(2001). Evaluation and Action: Sustaining Excellence in Collegiate Aviation Distance Education. The University of Omaha.
Retrieved 2002 from
http://www.unomaha.edu/~wwwpa/project/scarpellini.html

 

VWCC Factbook

11. Reaffirm TAC/ABET accreditation for the computer and electronics technology and Mechanical Engineering Technology programs.

Not achieved. A decision was made to not renew TAC/ABET accreditation. TAC/ABET requirements were constraining the curriculum and the benefits did not outweigh the costs.

http://www.vw.vccs.edu/factbook/Eval2000Goals.html

 

Prism Quotes Continued

"Now I do not say that the ideas espoused by ABET are bad. Quite the contrary, they are very good. But they are not the only good ideas. It is quite unacceptable that we should all be pushed into the same mold."

Alwyn Eades
Professor, Materials Science and Engineering
Lehigh University

http://www.prism-magazine.org/feb02/webextra.cfm

 

Re: Prism Quotes Continued

I wouldn't be surprised if ABET does have relatively conservative views regarding accreditation. But in fairness, their traditional approach has produced one of the most successful undergraduate-level accreditation programs out there. Let's face it: ABET has achieved very high "brand awareness" among engineers, and ABET accreditation is widely perceived as a mark of rigor and quality. How many English majors, or history majors, or biology majors can tell you who accredited their bachelor's degrees?

But let's suppose that ABET is too conservative. Well, university engineering and engineering technology programs are *not* required to hold ABET accreditation. There are many examples of non-ABET accredited engineering and engineering technology programs, such as those at Thomas Edison State College, Virginia Western Community College (cited above), and Pensacola Christian College.

It is true that ABET degree holders get preferential treatment from engineering licensing boards. But this fact is of limited practical significance. The vast majority of engineers (some 80%) work under the industrial exemption and never pursue a PE license. Even if they do, most states have provisions that allow non-ABET degree holders to become licensed; they just need to get more work experience than those with ABET degrees.

Any university that feels that ABET accreditation requirements are unreasonable is free to withdraw and establish a non-accredited program (as VWCC has in fact done). Any student who feels that the ABET requirements are unreasonable is free to enroll in an unaccredited program.

 

Can you provide a non US Engineering BS degree program from EU or UK or Australia that is DL.

I would like to see some names of schools that offer 100% DL Engineering programs.

IEE in UK or other UKEC accredited program will do.
FEANI accredited program will do.

As I was writing earlier in another post, California National University has an Electrical or Electronics Engineering degree program.
They are DETC accredited.

I would like to read about such a school that is accredited by a body equivalent to ABET and they provide 100% DL EE program.

Learner

 

The fundamental problem is that science (including engineering and medicine) is less well suited to distance learning than, say, business or law.

Distance learning can be effective, if you are studying material in books. But science students are also supposed to study natural phenomena directly, typically using specialized tools and instruments that are not readily available outside research institutions. For example, we expect that students pursuing undergraduate degrees in chemistry or chemical engineering will be familiar with chemicals -- not just books about chemicals. We expect that students pursuing undergraduate degrees in geology or geotechnical engineering will look at soils and rocks -- not just books about soils and rocks.

Realistically, distance learning may not satisfactorily address this aspect of science education. This issue affects a broad range of science-related degrees, not just ABET engineering degrees.

 

Re: Re: Prism Quotes Continued

Well the school is still accredited just the program is not ABET accredited.

The same may be in other fields.

Psychology APA or non APA.

The degree will be RA but not PA.

People may misread unaccredited.

its realy not PA accredited.

 

100% or 90% Who Cares

My fundamental point here is other countries are way ahead of us in distance engineering education. I don't care if it is 100% or 90% distance delivered.

We need to find out what they are doing right to make these programs a success and duplicate that. Maybe we can even make improvements on their ideas, but we need to do something because we are loosing out in the global market place. The United States is currently importing engineers because of a shortage of graduates. They have quality programs why don't we?


University of Sunderland

Contact: Sheila Donkin (quoting ref IIE6). Telephone: +44 (0) 191 515 2545

E-mail: [email protected]

http://www.sunderland.ac.uk



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

University of Central Queensland


CQU Rockhampton, Phone: 07 4930 9442, Fax: 07 4930 9722

e-mail: [email protected]

http://www.dtls.cqu.edu.au

 

Foreign Engineers

Boston Globe

A visa shortage
May 30, 2004

"IF THIS COUNTRY'S universities were producing enough US-born scientists and engineers, its businesses, hospitals, and schools would not be so dependent on non-US technical employees. But, especially now that the economy is recovering, the shortage of such highly trained personnel threatens to put a brake on growth.


For the fiscal year that began last Oct. 1, Congress authorized 65,000 of the specialized H-1B visas for foreign scientists, engineers, and workers in a handful of other fields..."



http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2004/05/30/a_visa_shortage/

 

Re: 100% or 90% Who Cares

Your search for 'Undergraduate' course(s) containing 'Engineering' returned '8' results


Automotive Design and Technology
Level: BSc (Hons) Mode: Full-Time Duration: 3/4 Years Sandwich

Automotive Engineering with Design
Level: BEng (Hons) Mode: Full-Time Duration: 3/4 Years Sandwich

Automotive Mechatronics
Level: BEng (Hons) Mode: Full-Time Duration: 3/4 Years Sandwich

Automotive Product Design
Level: BSc (Hons) Mode: Full-Time Duration: 3/4 Years Sandwich

Engineering (Multidisciplinary) - Distance Learning
Level: BEng (Hons) Mode: Part-Time Duration: 6 Years

Engineering Design and Manufacture
Level: BEng (Hons) Mode: Full-Time Duration: 3/4 Years Sandwich

Mechanical Engineering with Design
Level: BEng (Hons) Mode: Full-Time Duration: 3/4 Years Sandwich

Product Design
Level: BSc (Hons) Mode: Full-Time Duration: 3/4 Years Sandwich

I see a part time engineering program - 6 years that is DL.

I found IEE accredited

EAST LONDON UNIVERSITY BEng Hons ELECTRICAL & ELECTRONIC ENGINEERING (COMMUNICATIONS) 3 YRS FT / 4 YRS SW / 4 YRS PT

EAST LONDON UNIVERSITY BEng Hons ELECTRICAL & ELECTRONIC ENGINEERING (CONTROL) 3 YRS FT / 4 YRS SW / 4 - 6 YRS PT*

EAST LONDON UNIVERSITY BEng Hons MANUFACTURING SYSTEMS ENGINEERING (INDUSTRIAL PARTNERSHIP PROGRAMME) 3 YRS FT 4yrs SW/PT

GLAMORGAN UNIVERSITY BEng Hons COMPUTER SYSTEMS ENGINEERING 3 YRS FT / 4 YRS SW / PT

GLAMORGAN UNIVERSITY BEng (Hons) DIGITAL COMMUNICATION ENGINEERING 3 YRS FT / 4 YRS SW / PT

GLASGOW CALEDONIAN UNIVERSITY BEng Hons ELECTRICAL POWER ENGINEERING 4 YRS FT 5 YRS SW/PT

GLASGOW CALEDONIAN UNIVERSITY BEng Hons ELECTRONIC ENGINEERING 4 YRS FT 5 YRS SW/PT

HERTFORDSHIRE UNIVERSITY BEng Hons ELECTRICAL & ELECTRONIC ENGINEERING 4 - 6 YRS PT

So the list is long

They are FT or PT

But my understanding they are not DL

Paul do you know DL engineering program that has 70 or 80 Persent DL?

 

Re: Foreign Engineers

I guess whoemever it is in charge of this strategic decision prefers to recruit abroad instead of lowering standards. Those programs you mentioned are fine, but that one at Sunderland, for instance, it is not accredited by the Enginering Institutions either (only Incorporated Engineers). I still think that a degree close to engineering (perhaps a non ABET accredited degree) plus a master degree in pure engineering should get you as far as you want (in the engineering profession).



Regards

 

Re: Re: Foreign Engineers

I guess whoemever it is in charge of this strategic decision to pay less to H1 visa engineers then local.

This could be the real economics behind the need to import engineers.

There is unemployment among engineers in reality.
I know few good engineers with masters degrees who are looking for work, yes it is posible that heir jobs are outsorsed or taken by
H1 visa cheaper engineers.

Many companies lobying for less expancive labor.

Learner

 

Re: Re: Re: Foreign Engineers

Well, if that´s the case, then who cares about ABET accredited degrees? Let´s get one in philosophy or funerary techniques.....

Take a look, class of 2012. Here lies your future.