Choice of Content/Accessibility over Prestige

In an earlier thread I reported that I've been accepted into masters programs at both Florida Atlantic University and the University of Florida. Based on my first instincts concerning the relative respectability of degrees from either institution, I thought I had decided to go to UF. However, lately I have been having second thoughts based on the following observations:

1) FAU seems to offer more courses and more interesting courses by distance learning compared to UF. FAU's curriculum in Computer Science contains many specific and seemingly in-depth courses in both Software Engineering and Distributed/Multi-processing Systems which happen to be my predominant interests in the field.

2) FAU's professors have been very approachable and always very interested in personally helping me and quite happy to talk with me on the phone. The department chair even called me out of the blue to discuss my future plans! On the other hand, UF's professors seem to have more important matters than to deal with master’s level students. I have often seen extolled both on the department's web site and in department correspondence that I should not contact professors directly concerning assistantships or research opportunities.

Does anyone think I would be making some sort of drastic mistake if I chose to attend FAU rather than UF? I know that few people have heard of FAU but it is regionally and professionally accredited. For those who already have masters degree I have the following question -- what will be more important several years down the road -- what I learned or where I learned?

 

No.

The former.

 

Re: Re: Choice of Content/Accessibility over Prestige

I make one comment about your generally prolific posts and now I get a three word response....

(Actually, I like terse -- but I hope your unusual brevity wasn't due to my previous post on another thread.)

 

I'm a big believer in regional universities and I would go with FAU given your criteria. I have a paid subscription to the USN&WR site that allows comparions between colleges (undergraduate). That said, there's no doubt that as a whole, UF attracts MUCH better students and has a MUCH better reputation. If reputation is really that important to you, you might want to stay with UF. The average SAT score for UF students is 1240 versus 1130 for FAU. FAU's peer assessment score is 2.2 (5.0 = highest) versus 3.6 for UF. UF accepts 52% of applicants, FAU 72%. Average HS GPA for incoming freshmen is 3.4 for FAU, 3.9 for UF. I was surprised to see that UF is ranked # 50 in the whole country (tied with Penn State) -- and that's HIGH -- higher than I would have thought. To put it in perspective, Georgia Tech is #41, and Syracuse and Pepperdine rank below Florida. Conversely, FAU is ranked as a fourth tier school, and that is disturbingly low. I am very familiar with a couple of 3rd tier schools, and frankly, they don't impress me that much, so the FAU 4th tier rating raises my eyebrows a bit.

 

Oh, but to be as crafty (or volumey) as that for which you give me credit!

I just wasn't in the mood to craft a "volumey" post... or a voluminous one, either, now that I think about it.

Just kiddin' around.

Honestly, I completely missed that post of yours at the time... so your having said something about it here made me go hunt it down and read it. But just as I'm not offended by it now that I've found it (my "craft a volumey post" reference not withstanding), I wouldn't have been offended by it had I read it at the time. But thanks for giving me credit for having the wit to be inordinately brief here as my comment on your comment. I'd like to think that that's exactly what I'd have done... that is, if I'd have just noticed the damned thing at the time in the first place.

As for my inordinate brevity here... I guess I wanted that to be a cogent comment in and of itself. I sometimes get irritated with discussions that spend too much time on the prestige of one institution over another (and, by the way, I don't really mean your discussion of it here so much as I'm referring to the many times it's happened elsewhere in these and other fora).

Look, if it's true that regional accreditation is as meaningful as we all say it is... no, strike that... let's go one step further: If it's true that accreditation by an agency approved by the US Department of Eduction (USDE) and/or its Council for Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA) is as meaningful as we all say it is, then the relative "prestige" of any given institution should really only matter in extraordinary or exceptional situations and/or for extraordinary or exceptional reasons.

I've been hiring IT and/or CS people for the better part of pushin' three decades, and if one presented with a degree bearing the right title (and even if it didn't) and that covered all the right stuff; and if said degree and/or its coursework was from an institution accredited by a USDE- and/or CHEA-approved agency, that that, I tell you, would pretty much do it. Most others who hire IT and/or CS personnel, I dare say, would agree.

That said, I do recognize that if one intends to use the degree as requisite to a teaching position somewhere... well... then all bets may be off... which, in my opinion, still ain't right!

What can I say. Degree snobbery really pisses me off.

There. I waxed a bit "volumey" for you... maybe even slightly comedic, too. Happy now?

BOTTOM LINE: Get the degree, from among those properly accredited, that you believe will both best service your career needs and get you the education that you will find most self-satisfying, and of which you'd be most proud. Factor-in, also, that you'd like not to be treated like cattle along the way, and I'd say that FAU is your choice. But that's just me...

...being a bit more volumey.

 

Aaaaaahhhhhhh!

 

Thanks Gregg and Jugador for your replies. This is a hard decision for me because while FAU's program inspires me, its relative obscurity gives me pause when I try to imagine myself in the shoes of a potential employer. While I am inspired by the course work and research opportunities, I can't help believe that an employer's eyes won't stray much further than MSCS and the name of the University. So, like I say, this is a hard decision for me.

 

In my opinion...for whatever it may be worth...10 years from now the only difference a UF degree vs. an FAU degree will make would be if you happen to be applying for a position which might be offered by a UF alum or if you are being interviewed by someone who doesn't really know what they are looking for in an employee and who is degree-blind.

I have made my living hiring people for years and I am always far more interested in what someone has done with the opportunities presented by his or her education than what his or her alma mater may be.

The degrees and stats that jugador was kind enough to share are based upon things like SAT scores, HS GPAs...things that won't make a bit of a difference 5 or 10 years down the road.

A degree from a more prestigious school may get you in the door for an entry-level position or a job with a degree-blind hiring manager, but most GOOD hiring managers are going to look for the same things that I do. I am far more impressed by the dedication of a career changer or by someone who has taken the initiative to juggle work and school than I am by someone who has a degree from a big-name school but who has done nothing more with it.

Some of the most brilliant, successful and well-respected people I know have degrees from 'no-name universities'. It's what they did with those degrees that really counts. I have always found it interesting that when I have done a little bit of research on those people I admire professionally, the majority did NOT go to a big name school. Try it sometime. It's interesting. They let their work speak for them and not their alma mater.

Two personal experience cases come immediately to mind...both of the women listed below are my age -- mid-40's --

I went to HS with a girl who was a 3.5+ range GPA student, but more than that had common sense, a great work ethic, a wonderful personality, drive and determination. She had to pay her own way through school and worked full time all through school. She put herself through community college and finished up at our local state university -- an ok school, but nothing to write home about -- working days and attending school at night. She landed an ok entry-level position, but continued to enhance her skills and certifications over the years. She is now a senior executive of a large global player that we've all heard of.

Conversely, I am well acquainted with another woman who had a similar GPA , but mom and dad had the money to send her to a big name top-tier school that we've all heard of (not Harvard or Stanford, but one that ranks in the top 25 consistently in the rankings). She didn't have to work during college and finished in 4 years. She got a great first job, but has never worked to her potential, has had 'personality conflicts' with every supervisor she has ever had (the common thread being her work ethic and personality, but she doesn't see that, of course). She has rested on her 'big name degree' and has not taken the opportunity to enhance her skills and increase her professional certifications in the past 20 years. She has also finally burned enough professional bridges (it's a small world, after all) that she is unable to find anything but temp-to-hire (half salary and no benefits) positions. Problem is, they never hire her. She, of course, hasn't quite figured out why.

Guess which one I'd hire, given the opportunity...

 

Adjust your criteria

Well, it shouldn't be... not really, when you think about it. But I can see that this is a bona fide struggle for you, and that makes me feel, by way of empathy, bad. In addition to what I've said already, I point out to you the generally somewhat-different attitude toward institutional prestige that one can see over in the IT forums here. Oh, sure, some over in those forums worry about instiutional prestige; but, by and large, they just need the credential. Period. And that's in my opinion, the better approach.

I'm trying to think of the last time any IT hiring authority that I know gave one whit, one way or the other, about -- or even so much as mentioned -- school quality, generally... other than, of course, that it needs to be properly accredited.

Maybe it's because IT and CIS people rely so on, and appreciate, standards, generally, that they're so willing to trust the accreditation standard. That's why I've so often made the "standards" argument around here -- and cited the concomitant time/energy savings that reliance thereon can mean for those in industries that have them -- as among the most compelling of reasons why the world should also buy-in to the USDE- and/or CHEA-approved accreditation scheme, generally; and should only give unaccredited institutions the time of day in extraordinary situations, or in situations wherein there is some kind of playing-field-leveler that makes accreditation a secondary concern... like, for example, a leveler that makes it so that both ABA-accredited JDs and non-ABA-approved/CalBar-registered JDs end-up as equals when standing before the bench. They carry around the exact same bar cards in their wallets once they've both passed the exact same bar exam. Nothing equalizes like that bar card... which they don't make in different colors depending on whether the school where the person carrying it got his/her JD from an accredited law school. In cases like that, the imprimatur is the licensure, not where the licensee matriculated. But I digress.

It's just my opinion, mind you, but I think you do yourself a disservice by placing too much importance on the relative prestige of the institution; and doing so much fretting about it -- especially given the two options you've presented. You stated your worry that the employer will stop reading your curriculum vitae once s/he sees the degree and from whence it came. Nonsense! You give the somewhat-impressive-in-its-own-right MSCS degree, itself, far too little credit for being able to carry its own weight. An MSCS is nothing to sneeze at, no matter where it's from. It's a tough degree to earn; and anyone who can legitimately put it behind his/her name on a business card is someone with whom to be reckoned, no matter what... even if the damned thing is from Mort & Sal's College of Quickie Credentials and Kosher Deli... that is, of course, as long as Mort and/or Sal bothered to make sure their little operation was properly accredited by a USDE- and/or CHEA-approved agency.

Re-read your very own words, here: "FAU's program inspires me..." and "While I am inspired by the course work and research opportunities..."

You're not merely satisfied with the program you're considering being "adequate" for or "appropriate" to the career to which you aspire. Like a died-in-the-wool, hard-core motorcylist, such as myself, for example, the destination, while important, is only part of it -- and, often, not even the most important part. The trip matters, too -- and, at times, is all that matters. Don't dispense with that rare quality of consciousness of yours just so you can impress someone who probably isn't worth the trouble in the first place.

Unlike what most of us value when we're making our institutional choices, you require something more; something to keep you interested and motivated; something to help you be the best you the you can be: Inspiration. That makes you, I strongly suspect, a breed apart from most IT and/or CIS people. This industry will do its level best to make you more like the rest of those run-of-the-mill IT/CIS people. Don't let that happen. Don't ignore that bad feeling you got in your gut when you read UF's policy regarding direct contact with professors when inquiring about assistantships and/or research opportunities. Don't forget how it made you feel like a mere and insignificant number. The MSCS will be hard enough for you to do -- and do well -- without some numbskull from the generally clueless world of full-o'-themselves academia doing everything in his/her power to make you, along the way, become the spiritless automaton that s/he's become.

That the FAU professors were approachable, and that the department head took the time to call you out of the blue, should tell you pretty much everything you need to know about how you'd be treated during your studies there. And you obviously noticed. Just as your need to be inspired mattered, their caring obviously meant somethiung to you, or you wouldn't have mentioned it -- or inspiration -- here.

The people at UF have obviously lost their sense of that. They no longer get it. They're so impressed with themselves, by comparison, that they've just assumed you'll be impressed, too... and that that's what matters most. Inspring you is nowhere on UF's to-do list. You've spotted that... and it clearly bothers you.

Normally I use the following quote as something of a a piece of advice to the person with whom I'm chatting/writing... whatever. But this time I offer it to make a point:

• What you believe is more valuable than what you possess.
  What you live is more lasting than what you profess.
  Whom you inspire is more important than whom you impress.
  
  -- Dr. William A. Ward

Whose student would you rather be: Someone gets that, or someone who doesn't?

 

What DesElms said....

Go with your gut. You will kick yourself forever if you don't.

As an avid and regular reader of resumes, I must confess that I don't always even get to the part about where the candidate went to school before I know whether I want them for an interview. Keep in mind that the degree is the baseline. I agree with DesElms, too, in that the certification and accreditation pieces will play a much bigger role in getting your foot in the door for those interviews.

Once you get in that door, I have a hunch you'll have an advantage, too, as that inspiration piece and the communication and approachability pieces are going to make you like my HS friend in the post above.

Go with your gut and your heart.

 

Gosh...did I use the word 'pieces' enough in that last post?? Sheeesh! Sorry about that.

One more note and I shall hush (for a while, at least)...

I have often told young and enthusiastic members of my staff who are nervous about certification exams that once they hold that certification, nobody will know if they passed by one point or missed a perfect score by one point. Certified is certified. Again, it goes back to using degrees and certifications as the tools and foundation on which you are going to BUILD your career.

I felt the same way to a degree (no pun intended) when choosing an MBA program. Tuition costs and accreditation were both big factors in my choice of Amberton, but also the coursework required for the strategic leadership MBA was far more interesting to me than a lot of the coursework required of some of the other programs. I compared costs and course descriptions and opted for a program that was going to give me the most bang for my buck and to meet my needs, both personally and professionally.

I have been extremely happy with my choice -- particularly when comparing notes with friends and colleagues who are in the midst of MBA programs at more expensive schools -- both B&M and DL.
When all is said and done, we will each have an MBA and one or more HR certifications (PHR, SPHR, CEBS, etc.) Those are the things an employer is looking for. I often see "MBA required; SPHR preferred" in postings on our professional websites or on the big career posting boards. I have yet to see "Big name school MBA required; top score on certification exam preferred." Degrees and certifications are the baseline and the tools. It is what you do with those tools that counts.

 

What Marylars said!

[Gosh, it's gettin' all tingly and full of supportive fellowship around here, isnt' it? Quick... someone insult someone so this place starts feeling normal again!]

 

Precisely the reason I quickly addressed the 'pieces' post, DesElms!

(It was a pre-emptive measure because I knew that if I didn't do it someone else would quickly tear me to shreds!)

Back to watching the Illini win...and keeping those warm fuzzy tingles alive...

Mary

 

Thanks to both of you Mary and Gregg! You have given me a lot to think about. I'd have to say that your responses definitely demonstrate the goodness of DegreeInfo.com. Especially since nobody even criticized my spelling (at least explicitly.)

And Gregg – that’s what I’m talking about – nice and volumey.

 

Yeah. What they said.

I was in a grad program at "prestigious" Torquemada and got treated like excrement. Where I am now I'm treated like a human being. It's an easy mistake, but I appreciate it. Go with FAU.

Best wishes,
Janko

 

I see this a slightly different way

I’m about to state an opinion here that will likely be met with criticism. Before doing so, I’d like to say that I agree with much of what Gregg & Mary have said, yet, Joann, there are other points I think you should also think about. If I was in your shoes, I would be weighing my options as well, and this would not be an easy decision. I might go with either school, or might consider both and another alternative school. Below I will explain my reasoning behind my stance. My “impression” from reading your post, is that both institutions have a very different mission. That one is a highly selective research institution and the other an institution more oriented to the development of adult learners and educating the community; similarly to California’s UC vs. CSU system.

FAU: You have made it clear that they have shown a great concern for their students, and are very open and accessible when it comes to one on one contact and research opportunities. Although they are reported as being fourth tier, this could easily be due to a stronger focus on factors like higher composition of mature adult learners in their student body.While the stated initial personal-experience you’ve given does indicate that you will likely have a satisfying and pleasant student experience with FAU, it does not necessarily indicate (one way or the other) that you will receive a better education or be driven and challenged more in your learning experience.

UF: You have also made it clear that you are not (in comparison) as happy with UFs selection of classes in your major, accessibility of faculty, or (perceived) ease of pursuing research opportunities. Although others here have argued (through implication) that this should be a critically weighted factor in your decision, I don’t believe it should. We are all, I suspect, "Agreed" that ranking is not of ultimate importance, over-all reputation might, however, have some significance. The reputation of UF should not so easily be dismissed (IMO). It has developed a reputation based at least partly on merits of its graduates, and on research developed there.

Universities that are highly-ranked are also very competitive, and due to this factor it becomes necessary to develop policies that allow faculty to focus heavily on academic pursuits rather than student experience centered endeavors. While this might seem impersonal, it is merely a reflection of institutional intent. Ideally, a more research-centered institution’s has a mission more focused on giving a student the best possible education geared toward providing resources for that student to develop and add to the body of knowledge for the benefit of a profession and the world as a whole. Usually such institutions are more inclined to be more selective as well as more academically oriented due to their very nature.

Conversely with the previous type of school, institutions that are more focused on mature adult learners or the community tend to have a more student oriented nature. Often such schools tend to be more accessible in areas like student/faculty interaction. This is because one of the primary institutional goals would be more centered on the student experience and providing opportunities for the student to develop as an individual and academically for professional development and to benefit the community. This does not imply that the student is not involved in relevant research, and I am not saying that a student wouldn’t receive a high-quality education, possibly even the highest quality of education, but merely that each type of institution has a different focus. (Yes, I know I just used double-negatives.)

Your thread title shows that you view this decision as a question of "accessibility" versus "prestige", yet I feel the more important underlying question is: “What institutions will provide the best education?” I suspect that this would largely depend on your learning style and personality, given that it will (at least partly) determine your own response and drive in your educational endeavors. If I may illustrate my point with examples, I will give four (unnamed) people, who have attended three different schools, and give my (3rd party) summary (and personal view) of their experience (based on what they've told me).

Person-A: Went to a large and well-known research university, then transferred to a for-profit, adult-student oriented institution. She has spoken often of having a marvelous and emotionally rewarding experience at the latter institution, and having felt lost and viewed as only a “number” by faculty at her former school. While she speaks of having really enjoyed her student experience at the second institutions, she is now pursuing graduate studies at a highly-selective top tier institution, and says that she is having a more difficult time keeping up in class when compared with many of her peers. Whether this has anything to do with her education obtained from the previous school I could not say. This person appears quite intelligent, and recounts having learned “a-lot” at her prior school, but has said many times that she wished she had “stuck it out” at the first school.

Person-B: Went to a private, lower-tier adult-student oriented institution for his entire undergraduate degree program. He said the experience was very challenging and that he might not have been able to achieve many of his successes later in life if it wasn’t for the excellent education and personal interaction he had at his former school. He has been successful in his career, and later went on to complete graduate study at a small but very prestigious institution. I have asked him if he felt his education obtained with his previous school was equal to that of his peers in his graduate program and he replied with a smile; “I held my own against what are considered the best of the best, and have the diploma and transcripts to prove it.”

Person-C: Attended a well known first-tier institution that was considered to have one of the better programs in his field. He graduate in the upper-middle of his class (I’m told) and has been employed in his field ever since. He hasn’t been especially successful in his career, nor is he unsuccessful. He told me that he has twice started graduate study with other institutions but never completed either program. When asked about his experiences with the school he just shrugs his shoulders and said, “It’s a school like any other.”

Person-D: Graduated from the same school as person-c. I do not know anything about what school she attended for her undergraduate program. She has also told me that her view of the school changed with time but didn’t expand on the statement. Her account of the experience was that it was what she made of it. That, the knowledge and experience she gained from it has help her develop and become a leader in her field and that it was an experience worth recommending to anyone.

So again, I don’t think this is really a question of prestige over accessibility, as previously stated, but rather, which school best suits your needs. Do you feel that the bigger reputation of one school and potential to open more doors for you is more important professionally than the more personal attention you believe you will receive at the other? Will the greater selection of classes and more easily accessible faculty motivate you to learn more, or will the other school prove more challenging? Are there other alternate schools that you might consider that could offer a balance of reputation and accessibility that you might consider? It has occurred to me that both schools are in Florida and I’m assuming that you’d prefer a local school. Perhaps it would behoove you to also consider (or reconsider) the option of other institutions as well. This might even help you come to the conclusion that one of these two schools really is best suited to your circumstances and needs.

[reply continued in 2nd post]

 

[2nd half of reply]

What I have written here is only my opinion based on what I’ve read and heard from others. I don’t know much about either school. Joann, your posts lead me to believe that you have put a great amount of thought and research into these schools, I therefore assume that both are fine institutions. It is likely that either institution will give you the opportunity to gain an excellent education. This must not be an easy decision and regardless of what any of us think, only you can really know what is best for you. When I last was considering colleges and universities almost two years ago, I chose WGU because I felt it was the school that was best suited to my needs, price range, and would be likely to challenge me the most. I considered many institutions including some highly-ranked ones (WGU does not participate in rankings due to its competency-assessment based nature). I don’t regret my decision and would definitely make the same decision, given what I now know. If you decide based on what your needs are, then you probably won’t regret the decision either.

We each have our own selection factors important to us. Some of us look for name recognition, with some price is a major factor, and still others look for personal interaction or a particular format of course delivery that adheres better to our preferred learning style. Among my own criterion was that I wanted to be challenged. I learn and develop better if I’m forced to meet high standards. When I was looking for a school, many of the other schools that I felt would really challenge me seemed far out of my price range. So, when I narrowed down my options, I picked from among the lower-priced schools that I felt would be more rigorous and/or require a higher standard of work. In the beginning I wasn’t as happy with the decision as I am now, because I couldn’t just coast through the program and had to really apply myself. In the end, however, it was the right choice for me. You must decide what school will benefit you the most given your own criteria. Whatever your decision, I believe it will likely be the right one.

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