OK, I admit this may sound like a very ignorant question, but I am being sincere. I have noticed a few Help Wanted ads which specify a "Four Year degree" is required. I know they are talking about a Bachelors degree. However, does this indicate the employer wants to see a BA or BS....no matter how it was earned, or that they want to see a degree from an honest-to-goodness B&M college? It seems to me that specifying a "four year degree" is slanted against one that is earned by distance educaton in a much shorter amount of time. Am I just reading too much into this, or do you think specifying a "four year degree" shows the employer's bias against DL?
Of course there is not a one-size-fits-all answer here, but from what I've gathered, employers want people who have a bachelors degree and the supposed soft and hard knowledge that would accompany such a degree. In my field they tend to specify the types of majors they are looking for.
When an ad asks for a four-year degree, they are using a very generic term for a degree at the baccalaureate level. This could be a BA, BSc, BBA, BAS, BFA, BME, BEd, etc... as the only requirement passed to HR is a four-year degree. To argue that this excludes holders of DL degrees would be about the same as arguing that it also excludes those who took 3 years to complete their BA or BS at Local State University. It would also exclude those who took 5 years. Of course, that's not often the intention. Most often, the intention of the hiring authority is to require degree completion at the Baccalaureate level without regard to the degree major or the specific degree held. They are looking for an educated generalist. Often, the ad or announcement will specify the major or even in a related field but, when the ad does not so specify, it is often the case that the job is degree program immaterial -- or more simply anyone with a BA/BS can learn this job.
The ads I am talking about do include a major. For example, they will say something like: REQUIREMENTS: A bachelors degree in communications, English, journalism or related field from a four-year, accredited institution. Some will even add "from a four-year, regionally-accredited institution." Same difference? I'm sure they are just talking about a regionally accredited college which offers bachelors degrees...but I starded thinking...what if they are specifically talking about B&M institutions?
How would an employer know if my degree from Coastal Carolina University was DL or from campus courses? The same question could be applied to any number of schools out there that offer both DL and B&M programs. Some employers do indeed have a problem with what they call "online degrees" -- generally though, they don't know the difference between an RA DL degree and an RA B&M degree unless 1) you tell them or 2) your school advertises their primarily "online" method on TV.
OK, just playing devil's advocate here, but I'm sure plenty of employers are very familiar with TESC, Charter Oak or Excelsior by now. How many would consider degrees from these institutions to be "four-year" degrees? Has anyone had trouble using degrees from these colleges to gain employment, or to get into grad school? Yes, I know they are widely accepted, but I'm just wondering if anyone has run into the "four year degree" roadblock I was describing.
In 1970-something my wife earned her RA B.A. and MBA in 4 years from a college in Rock Hill S.C. She took just under 3 years for the B.A. and just over 1 year for the MBA. She earned a B.A., which is a four year degree, but look under 4 years. Nobody has ever given a hoot about any of that. When I'm done with my B.S. in October, I will have a four year degree, even though I will have earned it in 2 years. I already have a two year degree that I earned in one year. I am pretty sure that people just specify the degree as four year to distinguish it from the two year variety (associates) which are so popular where I live. Or maybe they just can't spell backaloreit. Dunno.
Just for the record: I just did a search on monster com US using the keyword "four-year" and I got over 1000 entries. Probably there's many more but 1000 is the limit I guess. For example, one of the ads reads: "Plaintiffs' subrogation experience is preferred, as is a four-year degree and/or paralegal certificate..." others: "Have a four year Mechanical Engineering degree and a minimum of 5 years demonstrated supervisory experience..." "Four year degree or equivalent preferred..." So actually this is quite a common requirement in job ads, to my surprize. PS: Just found this one which is worth mentioning, for an entry level post as a Casualty Claims adjuster: "JOB REQUIREMENTS: Education/Knowledge: Four Year Undergraduate degree Experience: None if hold four year college degree. "
There are certainly examples of bias against degrees not completed totally in residence by some employers. It probably happens hundreds or thousands of times each day. This would then include a bias against COSC, TESC, and Excelsior. There is often a bias against Phoenix and other "online schools". This is reality. Also reality, there is sometimes a bias against public universities or particular local schools by some employers. Some employers in certain parts of the country have a problem with degrees that come from "up-north" and some have a problem with degrees that come from "them liberals at..." This is a reality and anyone who wants to make certain that their degree has widest possible recognition in all possible environments should only consider attending Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Oxford, or Cambridge (as it is well known that all other schools are substandard). My point being that there can be made objections to any degree you hold from any university. Fact is though - this has nothing to do with "four-year" and has everything to do with individual employer perceptions. Certainly many employers have heard of TESC, COSC, and Excelsior. They must have because many employers pay the tuition of their employees at these schools. Every few weeks I read a post on this forum regarding whether a degree from one of the big three will be acceptable by employers -- I never see anyone ask whether a degree from Nobody Knowzit Local College B&M program will be accepted by employers. I always have to wonder whether people really think that DL is such a new concept that all of this hasn't been addressed yet. It's been hashed and rehashed and hashed again at all levels. It comes down this way: In some cases, a degree from a DL program has more utility than a B&M degree. In some caes it is the opposite. In most cases, the utility is about equal. DL degrees from programs that also have a B&M counterpart seem to get fewer questions than those which are entirely DL schools. This probably because the DL degree from a B&M is assumed to be resident. In most cases, an RA BA is an RA BA is an RA BA -- except when it is an RA BS. Employers just don't care as long as the degree is regionally accredited and meets their employment requirements. In a few cases - the source of the degree becomes important and in those cases the B&M BA from Podunk State U and the DL degree from Excelsior have the same value, little. Those employers want Ivy or a certain group of schools. An example here is the US Military which would prefer you attended an Academy and consider even a Harvard BA inferior to their preference for an Academy grad. It remains that some schools have a "better" reputation than others. It also remains that none of the Big Three are in that league. That said, to make the argument "I'm going to get my degree from Podunk U. because COSC isn't as recognized as Yale" just doesn't make much sense. Podunk U. isn't Yale either.
All but the most uneducated and ignorant. This because "Four-year degree" means "bachelor's degree". They are synonymous terms. I know of nobody with a piece of paper that reads "four-year degree in English". The specific animal of "four-year degree" simply doesn't exist. It's a generally accepted term that means "bachelor's degree" of any type. BA, BS, BEd, BM, BMA, BFA, PhB, AB, ScB, PharmB, the list goes on. Imagine if an employer listed all acceptable forms of "four year degree" in their ad when they didn't care which type the applicant holds. Ads cost money by space. So, a BA/BS from COSC, TESC, Excelsior is a four-year degree. Even if it took only 1 year to complete. Just as a BA from CalState is a four year degree even if it took a year on campus to get (which is possible to do).
Once again, it's the KISS principle. I love what's been written in this thread... good stuff! Really. But I worry that we're over-analyzing the whole thing (which, coming from me, is really saying something). And I would add that Coach Turner, once again, seems to have gone pretty much straight to the heart of it. Yes there is... and several here -- Coach Turner being the first among them -- have gotten it either exactly or nearly exactly right. Given the information provided in the thread-starting post, it means a bachelors degree, plain and simple, and not one thing more or less. Conditional qualifiers like whether said degree is acquired via distance learning versus in residence, at a brick and mortar institution; or whether it's a BA versus BS, play no role, whatsoever, in it. That said, the thread-starter subsequently added: Yes... as a practical matter, at least. Keep reading... They're not. They mean a bachelors. Period. And when they also add the word "accredited," they mean regionally accredited... and, I dare say, usually not because they actually prefer regional accreditation over national accreditation, but, rather, because they don't know the difference. Now, all of that having been said, of course there are ad-placers out there who, every now and then, really do know all the subtle differences and, therefore, when they say "four-year, degree-granting, regionally-accredited insitution," then bygod they mean exactly that and not one single, teenie, tiny thing more or less. When that's the case, they're saying that the degree must be from a school that is regionally-accredited (and not nationally-accredited); and that said school must grant four-year bachelors degrees (and that the degree cannot be a two-year associates degree). Additionally, if they're really persnickety about it, they may even mean full four-year degree-granting institutions and may be specifically excluding bachelors degree completion programs wherein the institution offers the last 30 or 60 hours of the 120 that typically make-up a BA or BS degree. Yes, of course there will occasionally be help-wanted ad-posters who mean exactly what they write, quite literally, and not one thing more or less. But, trust me, that's the exception, not the rule. Nine times out of ten -- maybe even 9.8 times out of 10 -- the term "four-year" in a want-ad simply means a bachelors degree and was used, simply, to keep two-year associates degree holders from applying. Nothing more. And, 9 times out of 10, when the ad contains either the word "accredited" or "regionally-accredited," it means regionally accredited... but more often than not, that's only because the ad-placer simply didn't know there was any other kind. And, when that's the case, the job candidate may very well be able to educate the interviewer so that s/he comes to understand that the candidate's nationally-accredited BA or BS is just as valid and sound as a regionally-accredited one any day of the week. Even when the phrase "regionally-accredited" is used in the ad, people with nationally-accredited bachelors degrees should never shy away from going ahead and sending-in their resumes. Further, a BA or BS holder should never fret about whether said degree was earned through a degree-completion program or from a full, four-year degree-granting institution... even if that's what the ad seems to be looking for. And, finally, one should never -- and I mean never, under any circumstances -- worry about whether the degree was earned through a D/L program versus a B&M program... or any combination thereof. The exception to that last part, I suppose, could be if the ad specifically stated that a D/L degree wouldn't be acceptable (i.e., that it must have been earned in residence via a B&M delivery method). But I'd sure like to see an ad like that; and then to discuss with the potential employer what could possibly be his/her rationale. I believe that if an employer would accept a residential, B&M-acquired BA from suchandsuch university, but would not accept that exact same BA from that exact same institution because it was acquired via distance learning, said employer would be opening itself up to a rather lucrative discrimination lawsuit. If an accredited institution states that suchandsuch degree is available via either resident study or distance learning, then both degrees are exactly the same no matter how delivered. For a potential employer to then make a distinction where there is, in fact, none, would be unconscionable and, most likely, legally actionable. Back to our story, though... The trick is to get the interview, one way or the other. Get in the door and you can always explain it (if it's even an issue, that is). If your BA or BS is nationally-accredited, getting in the door may mean putting -- in very small type, just below the degree listing on the resume -- the words: Accredited by an agency approved by the U.S. Department of Education (USDE) and/or its Council on Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA) Rich Douglas has talked alot in these forums about his study of this very subject, and the relative utility of nationally- versus regionally-accredited degrees. So, he'd be a far better person (than me) to comment on this... ...but I suspect -- and, mind you, this is nothing more than pure conjecture on my part -- but I suspect that, more often than not, when it comes to jobs in anything other than academia, a potential employer's refusal to accept a nationally-accredited degree is more about ignorance on the potential employer's part than it is about any measureable and/or objective quality (or lack thereof) of the accreditor and/or its imprimatur that said potential employer could claim or prove. But that's just me.
Oops. Yes, I know it should have been "than I," but I knew, as I was typing it, that I wanted to end with "but that's just me" long before I got to that point and my brain must have inserted "me" when it meant "I"... and I didn't notice it 'til after the 10 minute editing period had timed-out. Sorry.
I would say, no... but that's just me. Alan Contreras would be a good person to address this -- as would many others around here -- but if a degree is from a non-U.S. country (i.e., is what's called a "foreign degree" or "foreign credential"); and if said degree is acceptable to said country's own governemnt and meets whatever universally-recognized, GAAP-like, usually government-approved accreditation standards said country honors and asks other countries to honor (the exception being the countries that don't even have standards, to speak of; and in which, therefore, diploma mills tend to flourish), then I would say that any U.S. employer would (or at least should) be ethically-bound to accept said degree, on its face, as being equivalent to a four-year, regionally-accredited BA or BS degree. And if there's a doubt, the job candidate can quickly put said doubt to rest by having the foreign degree evaluated and declared equivalent by either AACRAO or a NACES member agency -- whose opinions on the matter, I should add, tend to be acceptable to most U.S. colleges/universities, employers and government agencies.
