I'm hoping that someone in this forum might shed some light on the following matter: 1. NCU have recently gained RA candidacy via NCA. From what I understand, NCU (located in Arizona) is affiliated with SCUPS - a California state approved (non RA) DL school. 2. From what I've understood from speaking with NCU admin staff (around Dec 2000), their course delivery approach is as follows: - a tutor is assigned - courses are accomplished via assignments and open book (non-monitored) exams. - Exams/assignments are submitted for grading when completed. - Exams/assignments are assessed. - Students receive their course grade. 3. I’m not sure if NCA have changed their course delivery format since Dec 2000 (or if they’ve been required to change by NCA). Assuming that they have not changed their delivery format, the NCU study approach sounds identical to their sister university's approach (SCUPS), as well as a number of other Cal state approved (unaccredited) DL universities. 4. Rich Douglas recently posted this message in another thread: “North Central certainly has been the most open about accrediting (and/or making candidates of) DL schools (Union, Walden, Jones International, IGS, Capella, Northcentral, Keller, CFP, Maharishi U., U. of Phoenix) SACS has been hit-and-miss (Nova Southeastern, Sarasota, but Walden cut out of there). Northwest and New England (COSC, Goddard) haven't had much activity. Middle States has been generally positive (Excelsior, TESC, Beacon, American, Empire State, Touro International). WASC has always been a toughie, despite Fielding's success (and CIIS and Saybrook)”. 5. Based on Rich’s above noted assessment (if we assume he’s correct) , and based on the recent developments with NCU – is it possible that a university that has no hope in hell in achieving RA candidacy in one region (SCUPS in California), may set-up shop across regional boundaries and successfully achieve RA candidacy there? (Lets face facts, NCU and their ugly sister, SCUPS, are one in the same and so are their programs and delivery formats). 6. Are NCA’s accreditation policies substandard to WASC policies?. Shouldn’t the 6 RA’s be consistent in there candidacy/accreditation approaches? How may other “better” (and I mean, “better than SCUPS”) Cal state approved universities have the potential to meet RA candidacy outside of the WASC region (i.e. the NCU situation), but are S.O.L. due to their geographic location? 7. Assuming that NCU achieve full accreditation lets look at this scenario: Two students enter similar DL programs, one at SCUPS and one at NCU. NCU is regarded a viable DL provider due to their RA, SCUPS is regarded as a bad choice due to their lack of RA. Both of the schools’ respective programs are the same and the 2 students earn their degrees at the same time. Both students achieve a GPA of 3.8. One degree is deemed acceptable due to the school’s RA, the other degree is deemed to be “limiting” due to other school’s lack of RA. Am I missing something here, or is there something wrong with this picture???
Oops sorry, I meant to say: 6. Are NCA’s accreditation policies substandard COMPARED to WASC policies?. Shouldn’t the 6 RA’s be consistent in there candidacy/accreditation approaches? How MANY other “better” (and I mean, “better than SCUPS”) Cal state approved universities have the potential to meet RA candidacy outside of the WASC region (i.e. the NCU situation), but are S.O.L. due to their geographic location?
Why does NCA have to be substandard? How about open-minded. Or try liberal, modern, flexible, forward-thinking, etc. Don't assume just because a regional association has not accredited many DL schools that its standards are somehow higher. In fact, Alexander Mood once predicted the demise of the accreditors because of their unwillingness to modernize their thinking about DL. He predicted that, essentially, market forces would ensure quality and the accreditors, rendered useless, would fade away. This hasn't quite happened, but that is in part due to the willingness of some accrediting agencies to recognize these unique paradigms. They've avoided, in some measure, becoming dinosaurs. The notion that a distance learning or independent-study-model school is somehow inferior to a brick-and-mortar school is dumb, too. A university is a collection of scholars first. Technology required them to commune in a common place. This is no longer true; we can communicate through so many different media as to render face-to-face contact a marginal requirement at best. Yet, the scholarship still goes on. Rich Douglas
I appreciate the point that Rich is making here, but the concept of "utility" is key here. Granted it is *possible* that a non-RA school could be as good or better than a non-RA school. (However, if that were the case I'd venture to guess that it would be the exception - not the rule. But I don't want to argue that point without some facts - which I don't have. Just a hunch.) HOWEVER - Regardless of how good that non-RA school is, the fact that it doesn't have Regional Accreditation means that it has limited utility. In other words, you will be challenged (for the rest of your life) with the stigma that accompanies non-RA degrees. RA schools will question *your* degree. Companies will question *your* degree. Your peers (with RA degrees) will question *your* degree. Etc., Etc. In other words, *you* are the one who lives with the limited utility of *your* degree. If that's OK with you - fine. Just make an informed choice and be prepared to live with it - until you die or go back to school and fix the problem. Barry Foster (been there, done that) PS: I'd think *very* hard about banking on some so-called expert's thought that accreditors are going down the tubes in the future. Remember, it's *your* degree and *your* life. For me, I wouldn't want to make my creditals a crap shoot.
SCUPS is not eligible to apply for WASC accreditation since they offer a distance education law program. Moreover, you cannot assume the "sister" schools have similar academic standards. NCU was formed with the intention of seeking regional accreditation. SCUPS was not.
I didn't say that. I've stated repeatedly that in the U.S., proper accreditation is key. Alexander Mood made his point 30 years ago writing for the Carnegie Commission. At the time, there were many nontraditional initiatives being brought about, but the regionals were really slow to accept them. This helped lead to the rise of legitimate, unaccredited schools, many of which have gone on to accreditation as the regionals have wisened up. I'm not predicting today the demise of the regionals, nor do I think Mood would. But that's not because the principal issues have changed. It's because the regionals did. (Not to mention the move by DETC into accrediting degree-granting schools). Alexander Mood was hardly a "so-called" expert. His writings for the Carnegie Commission were seminal in the field. Much of what we know and take for granted was proposed during the late 1960's and early 1970's. Having completed most of a Ph.D. program specifically in nontraditional education, I've been fortunate to be exposed to Mood and others' writings on nontraditional education during the past 22 years I've been at this. The citation: Mood, Alexander. The Future of Higher Education. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1973. Rich Douglas
It is similar to a number of WASC accredited DL programs too. I don't think that there are serious issues with the course format. I think that WASC has had an unstated policy of hostility towards DL-only schools. If WASC is going to approve a DL program, it needs to come from a school that offers on-campus education. That's been true even for the non-traditional graduate institutes WASC accredits like CIIS (all but two programs are residential) and Saybrook. WASC is cutting-edge in some ways but over-cautious in others. I'm not sure that's true. SCUPS has a niche, whether we approve of it or not. If it doesn't have a chance of getting WASC accreditation because of its DL-only format, then there isn't much incentive for it to meet WASC requirements elsewhere. But if NCA is willing to consider NCU, it would then be in their interest to tighten things up academically as well. They may have initially created NCU by more or less cloning SCUPS, and that might have been enough to get them started with NCA, especially if they have elaborate development plans. But that doesn't mean that NCA will settle for another SCUPS if NCU ever wants to successfully pass candidacy. I don't think so. If NCA were "substandard", then one would expect to find substandard schools congregating in the Rockies and Midwest. We don't see anything like that. Substantially, yes. But in areas that are considered a little experimental, or which generate some controversy, it might be a good idea to have them try alternative approaches. Not very many, I think. There really aren't a lot of CA-approved DL schools that demonstrate frustrated quality. And there isn't any evidence that SCUPS could earn regional accreditation elsewhere as-is. It's just that NCA is giving them the chance to modify their program to meet RA requirements without saying "no" on principle because of their institutional format. I think that you are assuming that SCUPS and NCU will be identical when (or if) NCU clears NCA candidacy.
"Originally posted by BillDayson: I think that you are assuming that SCUPS and NCU will be identical when (or if) NCU clears NCA candidacy." When NCU started AZ they had to start with something. It makes sense that they would start with the model they were most familiar with and see what needed to change from there. That NCU will not be an exact clone of SCUPS is evident by the removal of the DBA and Psy.D. programs. There is an evolutionary process here that is interesting to watch. Ted
Bill, Thanks for the time that you (in particular) have taken to address my initial posting. The excellent points reflected in your comprehensive response are well appreciated.
According to the SCUPS admissions counselors and catalogue, I once requested from them. Their graduate degree programs require significantly less semester hours to complete than NCU's. I remember counselors from both universities stating, that most SCUPS doctoral degree programs require generally 36 semester hours above a RA-masters degree to complete. While all of NCU's doctoral degree programs generally require 60 or more semester hours to complete above a RA-masters degree.
