CA distance law degree question: Can you advise clients online from another state?

Are there any rules barring this practice? What if it's an international client overseas and you are advising via phone?

Could I set up a "virtual" practice complete with CA mailbox and CA number while residing in Florida?

Thanks for any info.

Gilbert

 

This question is one of many related issues coming under the heading of "Multi-Jurisdictional Practice". It is too complex to address here.

Go to www.abanet.org and find the ABA committee on MJP. You will find position papers that will, if not answer your question, at least show you why there is no answer at the moment.

 

As always, thank you Nosborne for your quick responses and info.

ABA's got a tough strangle hold on the field of law and I agree to some extent why they need to. But they could throw DL students a bone now and again - that's why I asked the question.



Gilbert

 

Huh?

Wait a minute. Wait just one darned minute, here. I'm not sure I even completely understand the question. How could anyone -- even nosborne48 (whom I happen to know is smart as a whip) -- completely understand this question as it's been presented?

Firstly, how is a "distance law degree" an issue, one way or the other, regarding what I think is the question?

Secondly, nowhere near enough information has been provided to answer what I {i]think[/i] is the question...

...like, for example, how 'bout we know in what state(s) you are (or will be) licensed to practice. I dunno... silly me... somehow that seems relevant.

Thirdly, do I understand you to be saying that you'd be physically in Florida, with an office (or at least a home there); and you'd be setting-up a mere mailbox (like a Mailboxes Etc. sort of thing), plus a local California telephone number which, presumably, call-forwards to your Florida number... do I have that right? If so, would you, in your hypothetical, have a law office in Florida also? Would you even be licensed to practice in Florida, in your hypothetical? Or are you saying that you'd be licensed only in California, with a mailbox and local phone number (and probably also a fax number... don't for get that) there, too; but you'd be living in Florida?

Fourthly, you ask, "Can you advise clients from another state?" Where's the client, physically, and where are you, physically, in this hypothetical? And about precisely which state's laws would you be advising?

Fifthly, what do you mean by "online?" Do you mean a web site that contains legal information specific to situations, but not specific to any particular individual's situation; or do you mean individualized, person- and situation-specific advice via email or via a public forum or bulletin board? And, if it's the former (a web site); or if it's a forum or bulletin board on a web site, what kind of web site would this be; what would it be calling itself; what would it be offering or promising that it could do; and in which state, and regarding which state's laws, would this web site purport itself to be?

Sixthly, in your hypothetical, where is the international client; and regarding what state, and/or what state's laws, is he concerned, and about which you would be advising him?

I will almost certainly have more questions, but I think we've now got a good place to start.

 

DesElms:

And whether you are advising the public or are in house counsel, whether the matter is in litigation...yes, you ARE right, there's a lot to know.

But the ABA site contains the best collection of documents and discussions I know about.

 

If multi-state practice is even the issue. I worry that the thread-starter has misidentified the issue in the first place. I'm just tryin' to get past that.

 

Good questions DesElms - I was really just thinking out loud to myself and I guess I did not write enough detail.

I own a business in Florida and reside in Florida and go to Nova online earning a Master in International Business.

I wanted to attend an online law degree such as Taft next year to enhance my knowledge in business and to complete a goal I made for myself long ago.

In case I decided to actually practice law and did not want to move to CA, I posed a few questions to find out if it would be possible to:

virtually practice California or Federal law from anywhere (including Florida) I reside. By practicing, I probably meant charging international companies for advise on legal issues regarding trade, etc. as it pertains to the US and/or CA.

Sorry for not being as detailed before and I hope this helps clear up my original inquiry. Nosborne did seem to know where I was coming from and I did find multijurisdictional information on the ABA site. I have not finished reading it though but it seems to gleem over some of the issues I had.

Thanks again!

Gilbert

 

Nosborne seems to always pretty much get it... and usually fairly early-on. So no surprises there. And if it's truly a multijurisdictional practice question, in the classic sense, then fine.

But being the anally-retentive that I am, let me make sure I understand, okay? Tell me, being painfully honest with yourself, which, if any, of the following would be factually incorrect or essentially untrue in your hypothetical:

• You'd be a full-time Florida resident. You wouldn't even be a part-time California resident or even a person with dual-residency of any kind.
  
• You'd have your J.D. from a California unaccredited, but CalBar-registered, and non-ABA-approved law school.
  
• The only time(s) you'd have set foot in California would be to take the "Baby Bar" after your first year of law school; and then, later, the actual bar exam after your fourth; and then maybe also to visit your cousin Kate, or something... and, of course, also to setup that Mailboxes Etc. box and those local phone numbers... can't forget those.
  
• You and your law office would physically be in Florida, where you would not, at least at first, be permitted to actually practice law; and where your registered but unaccredited (by California) and non-ABA-approved J.D. would never qualify you to sit for the bar exam under any circumstances; but where, after 10 years of verifiable, in-good-standing bar membership and practice elsewhere -- and once you've submitted for evaluation to the Board of Bar Examiners a representative compilation of those ten-years-worth of work product showing the scope and character of your experience and practice elsewhere -- you might be permitted to finally practice law in Florida on motion, without exam.
  
• Your target client base would actually be outside the U.S.; and you'd be advising them via email and/or by telephone and/or in writing by fax, postal service or courier (and/or in-person, now and then, if they decided they'd like to meet face-to-face with the guy they're paying) regarding international trade with the U.S., generally; and only if push-came-to-shove, and as a nearly entirely technical matter, within the state of California itself, specifically (after all, that would be the only state in which you'd be licensed to practice so if you got backed into a corner, that's the only state about whose laws you could talk with legal authority); and whenever you did so, you'd really only be using your California license as an almost back-door sort of way to call yourself a "lawyer" or an "attorney at law" without being arrested in Florida for the unauthorized practice of law... and even then the Supreme Court of Florida might take issue with your calling yourself a lawyer while standing on Florida soil on purely technical grounds, if nothing else.
  
• If you did have to prepare a legal document, you'd actually be doing it while on Florida soil, but you'd be putting your California Mailbox Etc address in its upper-left corner; and if you actually had to file something, or, heaven forbid, actually litigate it, the only place you could legally do so would be in California, some 3,000 miles away, where you would neither actually live nor have an actual office... that is, unless it was a federal matter and you were also somehow admitted to practice in the 11th circuit by virtue of your California license... this despite the fact that said license would be from a state some 3,000 miles away where you would neither actually live nor have an actual office, and also despite the fact that you might not also be admitted to practice in the 9th federal circuit, where your Mailboxes Etc address is; and, finally, despite the fact that given from whence your license would have come, the federal judge in the 11th would furrow his brow and ask why you're not filing in the 9th where, from his perspective, you and your fruity California law license would belong.

Do I have it about right, so far?

 

Considering the best you can get from a DL law school is a California license, and you would like to reside in Florida (with some of the strictest out-of-state attorney practice laws around), and render legal advice from a Florida office to clients elsewhere, you will probably create a problem for yourself if the people you charge for advice live anywhere other than in California.

Better to bill yourself as some type of consultant, use the JD as a CV builder, but rely on the MBA as your professional credential and CYA by explicitly stating that the advice is not to be construed as legal advice per se, always consult a licensed attorney in the relevant jurisdiction for the final word, etc. Even then, the Cal of Fla bars might take issue and construe this as the unauthorized practice of law which might be a killer to the Cal license and certainly would make getting any subsequent license next to impossible.

Now, all this might change in several years with the move towards multijurisdictional practice , but I wouldn't hold my breath, and Florida would likely be one of the last holdouts in adopting these rules.

Your best bet, if you have the time, go to one of the many Fla law schools and get an ABA degree that entitles you to take the bar (and practice) anywhere. UF is relatively cheap as law schools go, assuming you're a Fla resident. Assuming you're near Nova's campus in So Fla, U of Miami law has a good selection of International Business type courses, which given your interest, might justify their high tuition and make you much more marketable in the long run. And you have Nova and St. Thomas as "safety" schools in the So. Fla region. If you're up towards Tampa, Stetson is starting an evening program in Tampa, IIRC.

 

Good advice.

Why are "safety" schools always so damned EXPENSIVE?

In most states, practicing law without a license, meaning without THAT STATE'S license, is a crime. A misdemeanor, to be sure, but one which the California Supreme Court is unlikely to ignore.

DeElms:

If I'm usually right, why am I locked in a battle with little fauss over his theory of constitutional law?

I say the people are sovereign and enacted the constitution directly as legislation. He says that the constitution is a sort of contract between the states and the people?

Therefore, whereas I say that the people govern by acquiescense except when they DON'T (Richard Nixon) so the constitution is what the Courts say it is until the people say otherwise.

He says that the intention of the framers is somehow the intention of the parties and that the document should be interpreted in that light. Strict constructionist, in other words.

What am I missing?

 

Yeah... wow. Hey, Gilbert... what se94583 said!

All the extra padding, I suppose. (Safety. Get it?)

[No joke worth laughing at should ever have to be explained!]

Yes, and as se94583 pointed-out, Florida is exceptionally persnickety about these sorts of things. In fact, most attorneys in this country have heard that Florida has big, ol' defensive walls (figuratively speaking, of course) built around it to keep lawyers from other states from coming there... at all. If you come up through the ranks in Florida, that's one thing. But if you come there from somewhere else, they make it as difficult for you as possible. Ostensibly, this is because they know that alot of people want to retire to Florida, and they don't want a bunch of retired, part-time attorneys from Northern states coming in to Florida and taking business away from native Floridian lawyers. That's why Florida requires the whole ten years worth of work product ridiculousness. They don't say you can't come there from elsewhere and practice; but they sure make outsiders jump through the hoops. Florida is one of the only states... in fact... lemmee think for a minute... hmm... they may actually be the only state that will allow a non-ABA-approved J.D. holder to practice on motion, without exam (as long as he has been doing it at least 10 years somewhere else and can prove it by spending $900 to ship copies of 10 years worth of work product to Florida for review); but they won't let that same non-ABA-accredited J.D. holder with 10 years of experience sit for its bar exam. Think, for just a minute, about what that's telling you!

All that being the case, one must ask oneself just how hospitable Florida would be to a guy with only a California law license (and with a non-ABA-approved law degree, to boot), but who lives in Florida and operates his practice from there? I believe they'd hone-in on a guy like that within the first year; and I think they'd just dispense with a mere citation and make sure the press was there and that handcuffs were used...

...or that a lynching tree were nearby.

Just my opinion, mind you.

Where? How did I miss something as cool as this? Maybe it's a thread I just haven't gotten to yet today. Don't worry... I'll find it!

 

DesElms - You are absolutely right on all counts. That's where I started going with my question

se94583 - You make an excellent point. I believe I am more the consultant type than anything else.

I did consider going to an ABA school in Florida but have several reasons why not:

1) Work, my biz and Family (wife and 2 kids) are things I do not want to spend too much time away from

2) I have almost run out of financial aid (yes, I couldn't believe it myself) through my many, many years in school

3) I did not want to be a "office" lawyer and be a slave to a career

Nosborne - Don't worry, I'm not about to practice law in a state outside CA or do anything else against the law after all the advice from you guys tday.

Thanks for digging deaper DesElms!

But now I truly feel I want a CA bar correspondence JD.

G

 

Look at Northwestern Cal University www.nwculaw.edu

It's cheap, been around a while, and has a track record of producing a few new lawyers every Bar exam cycle.

N.B. I have no connection with this school. The only contact I've ever had with them was when I enquired about their S.J.D. before signing with London. They were prompt, accurate, polite and not pushy.

The LL.M. is very rewarding but part of me wishes that I'd considered the NWCU S.J.D. a little more carefully before deciding.

Look also at Taft www.taftu.edu More expensive but DETC so no one, even in Florida, can ding you for claiming an unaccredited degree.

There are others. A complete list is at www.calbar.ca.gov under Bar Exam-Law schools. Available at the same site are complete Bar and Baby Bar pass rate statistics by school and year.

 

titanic struggle

DesElms:

The thread is "faith based hiring" under Political.

Little fauss is a careful, thoughtful lawyer. By no means an easy opponant!

 

There's a guy who has a radio show, I think it's called "Handle on the Law," and this guy (whose name is Bill Handle or Jimmy Handle or whatever) gives out legal advice to people from all over the country. I think he's based in California but anyone can call in to the show via an 800 number. Generally it's entertaining and I learn at least a little something every time I listen.
Jack

 

Then I don't see it as a multijurisdictional issue at all because in order for it to be that you'd have to be licensed in multiple jurisdictions (duh). In this case, you'd only be licensed in one, and practicing, in effect, in the other -- your Mailboxes Etc address and local phone numbers notwithstanding. Worse, the particular jurisdiction you're talking about (Florida) would, upon learning of it, hunt you down like a dog, prosecute, and ask questions later. They're near-psychotic about "outsiders" practicing in their state. It's particularly easy to get nailed for UPL there.

Okay, well... in the area of assumption, you're screwin-up already. If you think you'd spend any less time (or at least much less time) studying in a California D/L J.D. program than you would in a local, B&M, ABA-approved J.D. program, think again. It's a 15- to 25-hour-per-week endeavor for four long years... without letting-up on you for a single minute. Per CalBar rules: A D/L J.D. program is 864-hours of study and preparation per year; a "year" being defined as not less then 48, nor more than 52 weeks. So, assuming you could do the 864 hours (and that's a minimum number... I'd call it 900+ to be safe) in 48 weeks, there's like one month of break time during the entire year built-in to those numbers. That doesn't leave much time for biz or family, no matter who you are.

Some schools have monthly payment plans that, as long as your other bills aren't too bad, actually are kinda' halfway almost affordable... or not.

A classic Florida mentality... and I'm not complaining, by the way. I lived in Tampa, in a nice little house on Davis Island, for a while a few years back. Loved it! But there's no work there -- at least not at the income levels to which I've become accustomed. When I first arrived in Florida, I had a brief gig at a computer network structured cabling company (now out of business... but certainly through no fault of mine). I'm not saying that you're like this, iquagmire, but I noticed, right out of the gate, that there's a decided, "Oooh... careful... not too much work" attitude among workers in that state. And why not? The place is beautiful and there's lots to do other than work. I understand it. But some Florida workers are just over-the-top. More than half the crew members who worked there when I got there had this sort of attitude: "What! I'm up. I'm dressed. I'm here. What more do you want from me?" And they liked to try to knock-off around 2:00 PM to go to the beach. Of course I tuned them up -- Chicago style -- in a big-assed hurry... hence the beginning of my aforementioned enemies list. They didn't know what hit them. But it was certainly an eye-opener for me.

Whew!

I can spot a UPL coming 10 miles out! And when you said "Florida," I thought to myself, "Ohgod... let's see if we can keep this poor guy outta' jail!" [grin]

Then get one! And get it out of your head that you'd never move to California! I've lived in Florida and I've lived in California; and while I did like the laid-back, sometimes beach-bum-like sort of atmosphere it can sometimes have, I was too "Chicago" for that state. I made enemies left and right with my blustery, city-of-big-shoulders approach to things. Plus I couldn't make enough money there. And I got tired of following slow-moving Cadillacs that appeared to have no one driving them (you know what I mean). I was in my early '40s when I lived there, and I was still thirty years younger than everyone else in the grocery line. And there are alot of people there who, when you say, "Hey, cool! Let's go do this," have the attitude, "Hey... I came here to relax. Leave me alone." I just got tired of it.

California has beaches, too, ya' know. And is just as warm in most parts. I did like the short, little, gentle, tropical Florida rains (as well as the occasional cloudbursts and thunderstorms) everyday though. California has no such thing. Prior to this year's torrential rains, it hadn't rained here since 1931. Kidding, of course... but it certainly feels like that sometimes. It can be dry... lemmee tell ya'.

But you could do worse... that is, once you get over the housing cost sticker shock. But just think: All that money you'll have saved getting a California D/L J.D. from Northwestern California University School of Law (or, if you want DETC accreditation, William Howard Taft Law School) while still living in Florida (and enjoying its lower cost-of-living) you can put down on a house.

Do it! Whatever downside you may perceive to living in California instead of Florida will be offset by the fact that you'll be a lawyer!

You may note that I just assumed you'd want to pass the bar and practice law after you got your California D/L J.D. (and, of course, California would be the only place, at least initially, that you could). Just go ahead and suggest to Nosborne that you have anything else in mind for your J.D.!

Ah... that explains it. Ever since Chip made a separate "political discussions" area, I've kind of avoided it...

...obviously not because I have nothing to say, of course; but, rather, precisely because I do... and I'm trying to be a better steward of my time!

But I'll go look!

Usually there's some kind of disclaimer that it's all for entertainment purposes only (not that I'm sure that would hold-up if anyone decided to actually make an issue of it). And I presume that guy's a lawyer with a license from somewhere, right? Also, I think alot of jurisdictions view that sort of thing as not terribly different from what a web site like NOLO.COM does... which is dispensing "legal information" as opposed to "legal advice."

Texas, some years back, tried to bust Nolo's chops and called Nolo's dispensing of "legal information" a form of "legal advice" and, therefore, the "unauthorized practice of law." Lawyers, judges, supreme court justices, etc., from all over the country chimed-in. Nolo got one of the best law firms in both California and Texas to mount the battle. And the Supreme Court eventually got pasted.

Since then, mass-media-delivered "legal information" shows -- even when they sometimes cross the line over into "legal advice" -- have been more or less tolerated by most states.