American vs. European Graduate Degrees

I used to think that the European graduate programs for the M.A./M.S. and Ph.D.'s were somewhat "better" than the American. On recent reflections, I'm leaning towards the American system. This is, of course, prefaced on similar level institutions.

I welcome any comments or comparisons.

EsqPhD

 

And your evidence is?

Peter French

 

I think the operative question is "better for whom?"

I look at british doctorates granted to Americans with a bit of scepticism: not because of the quality of the degrees or the research (they are excelent) but b/c of the mismatch in educational experiences. The American doctorate has two components: The first component assures that the candidate has a broad grounding in the field (through required courses and/or qualifying examinations). The second component is the research itself.

The British model assumes a generally more focused undergraduate experience, and thus often dispenses with the first component at the graduate level (since the candidate will have 3 years undergrad entirely in the field of the doctorate). The mismatch occurs when someone with an undergraduate degree from the US (who might have 1 or 1.5 years of total work in field (32-38 credits for a major at many schools) does a British PhD. In these cases the candidate has a good knowledge of their little corner of the field (from their Dissertation reseach) but is lacking a grounding in other areas of the broader field.

comments?

 

I was impressed at the length of the European graduate thesis, typically much longer than the average American. Thus for example, an M.Phil. thesis can be between 150-200 pages on average in the European system and the Ph.D. (European) around 300-400+ pages also.

When I looked at our American system, we typically do 1/3 less in length (thesis).

On further reflection, I realized that in a research based only (most European) graduate degree, one does not do other graduate coursework or submit extensive papers for those classes (in addition to midterms and final exams).

I guess then, if one had the whole academic time to work solely on the thesis, it would be more voluminous.

The American, for example, who undergoes an M.A. in history, cannot just submit a thesis alone at most American schools. He/she has to complete approximate 36 semester hours--30 of which is for coursework--6 allocated to the thesis. Assume the classes are 3 units each--thereby a total of 10 classes. If in each of those classes, one not only need to learn a variety of areas, take traditional exams, and write a 15 to 20 page research paper, the amount of writing for the course work alone can average between 150-200 pages. In addition to that and exams, the American student is expected to write a thesis of another 75 to 100 pages (for M.A.), that would produce a total writing for that M.A. program of between 225 to 300 pages of written research. All of this and coursework plus exams are quite time consuming as compares to the many graduate (not professional) European M.Phil.'s which could be done by a submission of a thesis of 150-200 pages. And if one does a European M.A., the thesis expectation is less than an M.Phil.

A similar scenario applies to the Ph.D.--since most American Ph.D.'s require coursework as well as a dissertation.

Just reflections...but the reflections are causing me to lean towards the American system as superior--because it is typically more rounded. I can be persuaded to lean the other way if someone can pose more persuasive arguments for the European system.

EsqPhD

 

Dissertation length is a poor indicator of quality or of work. In fact in my field I've found that many of the longer dissertations are in severe need of some editing. If fact I know a number of professors who will refuse to sign off on a dissertation LONGERthan some metric (the metric is individual to the professors, and advertised to students selecting them for their committees).

Also page formatting variations can be a big difference. I was recently puzzling over the variations in length in my wife's old department's dissertations when I discovered that the University had changed the required typesetting format to no longer require double-spacing with margins the size of Texas. The longer dissertations had all been typeset with the old format, in many cases to bring the page count up to a number that the candidate thought was "acceptable"

 

The above is a good point.

On this point, I think it applies to some but to others, the three years of undergraduate will include more than just one area--for example, a BA reading Philosophy, Political Science, and Economics. Many of the European BA/BSc students will actually "read" (study) more than just one area in their 3 or 4 years program. These same student will still go straight into a completely thesis based research degree.

EsqPhD

 

I agree with the position expressed here. The issue is not so much which system's approach to education is better, but rather which is more appropriate. For the reasons Gerstl outlines, I usually strongly discourage American students from pursuing wholly research-based foreign master's degrees. Generally, American students simply lack the adequate undergraduate foundation to jump directly into a wholly research-based master's program.

In my experience as the only American student in the Spurgeon's College (London) master's program in Applied Theology, I have come to be convinced that my British classmates' "specialized" preparation at the undergraduate level was much more thorough and focused than the education I received as an American undergraduate. For them, moving directly into a research-based course of study would be more feasible, because they already have completed a significantly greater amount of foundational work.

My British friends are very conscious of this disparity between British and American approaches to education. Several have articulated their understanding that American PhD degrees are structured to provide American students the same preparation that British students already would have received during an earlier stage in their education.

So, the question of whether or not one would receive as "good" an education at a European university depends on how appropriately that European degree compliments one's prior studies.

Furthermore, I don't think it's fair to lump "European" institutions into a single category. The standards and structures of European graduate programs differ significantly from culture to culture. For example, one likely would find a higher degree of similarity between British, South African, and Australian PhD programs than between British and German PhD programs. The approach simply is very different. So, it is a bit of a stretch to refer to them as though they can be bunched neatly into a single category.

 

At present, I am nearing the completion of my University of Wales validated master's program, which has consisted of coursework and thesis. By the conclusion of this degree, I will have written close to three hundred pages of material--and not a page of fluff. In comparing my work with that of my American peers who are studying at US seminaries, I find that the demands being placed upon me are much greater than what they generally are facing. The calibre of research and writing is expected to be much higher, and the grading standard is much more stringent.

Furthermore, I agree with Gerstl that the number of pages required isn't exactly the best indication of the quality of a program. What is expected to be found on those pages? That's what matters.

 

Regarding the page expectations of thesis and dissertations (European or U.S.), I do not mean to indicate that it was a sign of quality as much as the average institutional expectations.

As for the M.Th., it is hard to compare it with the M.A. level without lengthy clarifications, because the M.Th. is an advance theological degree that often presupposes a B.D. or M.Div. equivalent with a higher level of writing skills. I was more focussing on say the average undergraduate level subjects, and then their academic graduate levels thereafter.

EsqPhD

 

By "quality", I am referring to the quality of the institution. You have presented your data about thesis and dissertation length in support of your claim that the American system is somehow "better" or "superior" (and have derived from this the conclusion that programs at "similar level institutions" in the US likely are also "better" than or "superior" to their European counterparts). I simply am saying that dissertation length, as a means of measuring "institutional expectations" as you have put it, simply is not a valid means of determining the comparative quality of American versus European graduate programs.

 

In actuality, you will find that at the majority of British (or, for the most part, South African or Australian) institutions, the stated prerequisite qualification for entry into an MTh is possession of a relevant undergraduate degree. Thus, where the British system is concerned, the MTh is on par with the MA where the issue of requisite academic background is concerned. As for me, prior to entering the Spurgeon's MTh, I completed a BS in Religion with a concentration in Biblical Studies.

As far as the level of writing skills required is concerned, I doubt you'd find many British folk willing to agree that the MTh is categorically more demanding than the MA. For example, the Aberdeen University MTh is by no means more demanding than an Oxford MA. Similarly, a University of Wales-validated MTh from Spurgeon's College is likely to have requirements very similar to those associated with the Manchester University-validated MA from Nazarene Theological College. So, what you say about the MTh (read ThM) certainly is true in the American context, but it doesn't necessarily ring true overseas.

 

As an American I am biased towards American graduate education because the degrees have more utility. Is the work of better quality I do not know. In the long run we sure seem to get a lot of Nobel prizes and other international recognition from people who are products of the American system.

John

 

Yes, I would agree that, fundamentally, "outcomes" should be the chief determinant by which we assess a system, institution, or degree program.

Of course, we have to be careful in comparing the quantifiable "outcomes" (such as number of Nobel prize recipients) of the American "system" over against those of other nations. Bear in mind that the US is much larger and has many more institutions than, say for instance, England. It would, therefore, be unfair to make a direct numerical comparison between the two, because they do not begin on equal ground. In circumstances like this, comparisons "per capita" or "per 1,000", etc., would be more appropriate.

 

I tried to figure out which was better, then gave up; they employ completely different approaches, and it's like comparing apples and oranges. Ex: The HUX program at CSUDH requires more assignment-based writing than Wales-Lampeter's MA in death studies (and a thesis of roughly equal length), but far less reading. The University of Manchester's Ph.D. in religions doesn't require coursework, while the University of Chicago's Ph.D. in religious studies does, but a quick look at the dissertation bibliographies will almost certainly reveal that the average Manchester student has cited more books. And so forth.

Education is a very tricky, non-linear thing. I learned that for the first time back when I was a tricky, non-linear homeschooler.


Peace,

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Tom Head
www.tomhead.net

 

I do not specifically want respond to the M.Th. issue at this time. I may want to open up or respond to a new discussion thread regarding ministerial training and the study of theology in the future though.

I would like to narrow the discussion off theological degrees since in that arena, there are so many different levels and types that it becomes a bit more complex. Let me make a case though for the major of Education between the British and American systems.

I cannot see how an average person doing a Ph.D. in Education within the British system is comparable in breadth and scope to their counterparts in the U.S. Assume the British student takes a BA in Education, afterwards, goes into a wholely research based Ph.D. in Education--how is that comparable to the U.S. student who takes a BA in Education (most taking more education courses in their electives than just the major requirements), then has to do a M.A. or M.Ed. (36 sem. units of coursework plus thesis) and then a Ph.D. or Ed.D. (36-48 sem. units of coursework plus dissertation)? To me, in this case, as in many other areas, the U.S. system of study leading to the Ph.D. is much more extensive and broad than their British/European counterparts, who at the graduate level, can just turn in a dissertation with no further breadth of coursework and requirements.

EsqPhD

 

Undoubtedly one of the most stupid posts I have read in quite some time.

 

More than that one? Seriously, if you don't have anything to say about the substance of the poster's comments, then zip it.

Rich Douglas

 

Interesting issue. Of course there could be any number of reasons for more Nobel prizes beyond simply excelling over the competition.

I would have to say that depending on the European country the "average" calibre of the graduate student may be superior to that of the "average" American graduate student. The reason is that in many European Countries, going to University is not merely a matter of deciding to go. Some are very selective about who goes on to college, filtering some out to go through a technical route. The result is that only top intellectual performers go to University.

Each system I suppose has its advantages when you look at education. Ours gives late bloomers & nontraditional academics a chance.

As for research vs course work. I suppose that doing a research degree it is possible to do an exhaustive study of your area and through the process of integrating it into a dissertation come away as enlightened as someone taking course work they soon forget and doing a smaller dissertation.

The problem with some American Ph.D course work is that it sometimes looks an awful lot like the course work one did as a Masters level student. So is it in a sense redundant busy work?

North

 

It is important to note that I have stated my bias. I am not not going to argue for or against any one country's degree programs because approaches towards education vary. I also think that outcomes from education are very important as the "proof is in the pudding" so to speak. However, as a discussion point, one takes this topic as being interesting but not easily validated in favor of one country or the other. For instance, there was the 'per capita' basis as one poster suggested of which some research may be able to shed some light on actual outcomes.

Anyway, it is interesting to note what you think of the post even if it is off the cuff and didn't address the topic.

John

John

 

This is actually one of the major reasons why I do like the research doctorate method so much. If master's-level coursework doesn't prepare someone for research in her field, then what is the thesis supposed to represent?


Peace,

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Tom Head
www.tomhead.net