An interesting development (maybe). The unaccredited but quite legitimate University of Northwestern California School of Law, www.nwculaw.edu has long offered a thesis based Master of Laws degree (in addition to a Bar qualifying J.D. and an intriguing S.J.D.) for persons holding a first degree in law. They have now relaxed the entry requirements. Applicants who do not possess a J.D. will be permitted, at no extra cost, to take several "core" J.D. subjects before commencing their LL.M. coursework and research. I really don't know who would want to do this. Obtaining an LL.M. by D/L is no walk in the park to begin with. Doing so with less than a year or so of "undergraduate" legal education cannot make anything easier. And, at the end, the student still receives an unaccredited degree. Nevertheless, I suppose the program might be of interest to persons who wish to approach law study from a strictly academic, research based angle, concentrating on a particular issue or set of issues. There have been posters on this forum who claim such an interest. It is certainly cheap enough. Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with NWCU and have never taken a class from them. I AM impressed with their overall history of making lawyers in California by D/L and the one time I communicated with them concerning their S.J.D., I received a prompt, courteous, accurate reply. If I ever manage to complete my LL.M., their S.J.D. is a real possibility for me.
I see you're studying for an LLM through London External. Would you be kind enough to answer a few questions? How's it going, and have you taken your first set of exams yet? Is the London program well-regarded worldwide? In America? Or do you just get blank stares when you tell people where you're doing your LLM? Would your LLM have any utility in American academia considering it's not ABA-accredited?
I will take my first two papers in August. If I am successful (and I expect to be) I will take the second half in August 2006. The program I am in is being phased out and is accepting no new applicants. The University of London, through Queen Mary and University College London, is offering a much better designed (and much more expensive) replacement LL.M. program. The details can be found at www.londonexternal.ac.uk The University of London LL.M. is well known throughout the common law world with the unique exception of the United States. The structure of U.S. legal education is radically different than in the rest of the common law world. In England, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa, from what I've been able to divine, the LL.M. is the basic academic qualification to teach law at the law school level. The London LL.M. is targeted to aspiring teachers as well as specialist practitioners. The professional degree is the LL.B. which is an undergraduate program. In the United States and to a growing extent in Canada, however, the practitioner's degree is a post graduate program, titled the J.D. or, in Canada, the LL.B. In the U.S., the J.D. is also the only degree necessary for tenure in a law school. The LL.M. is increasingly common, but it is by NO means required for any purpose whatever, academic or professional. So the short answer is that the London LL.M. will not qualify me to teach here in the U.S. but neither would any other LL.M. degree. I am already technically qualified by virtue of holding an ABA accredited J.D. The American legal academy knows about the University of London. A few American law schools have joint programs with UoL. However, the insularity of the American legal world is pronounced, probably as a direct result of our Revolutionary War and independence.
Thanks for the response. The LLM, so I'm told (and is apparent by the "M") is a "Masters". Why would attys get their Masters AFTER their Doctorates? So what do you plan to do with your degree? Do you wish to teach and are seeking another credential even though technically qualified with the J.D., or is it just for pursuit of knowledge and love of all things legal? Thanks!
I'm considering the new London External LLM for exactly that purpose. I need to know law in my area of study, but I don't need to be a lawyer. If I do the degree someday, I'll be going into it with a strong background in political science and international law. I imagine it would be rather daunting to start at the LLM level without a relevant background.
I am using the London program as an opportunity to engage in a structured examination of the criminal law, a social institution that, though I've been a part of it on and off for fifteen years, I've never really looked at before. In other words, it's personal. The London LL.M. is a "taught" degree. It IS possible to write a Master's Essay in place of one of the subject examinations but it really isn't a research degree in the usual sense. The research degree is the M.Phil. and it has no coursework and cannot be done by D/L. The American J.D. is not a dissertation doctorate like the Ph.D. American lawyers pursue the American LL.M. usually as a further professional qualification in a specialty, far and away most often Taxation. Very, very few American lawyers or law professors earn a genuine doctorate in law. Foreign lawyers usually pursue the American LL.M. to learn about the American legal system and qualify to take the Bar exam in a handful of states. The vast majority of the handful of dissertation doctorates in law American schools award each year go to foreign lawyers and law professors. Indeed, many such programs will not even accept applicants who hold an American J.D.
Re: Re: D/L LL.M. for non lawyers From what I've heard about the hoops they make you jump through at Harvard Extension to get your Masters and the level of work required for each of the courses, I imagine that if you manage to make it to the end of the rainbow there, nothing will seem too daunting. That'd make for quite a resume: "Harvard University, Master of Liberal Arts; University of London, Master of Laws". BTW: Is Harvard Extension as tough as they say it is? Do they try to run you out of the program and are there massive drop out rates there like it used to be once-upon-a-time in law school? (at least that's the way it looked on "Paper Chase"). I've heard stories that Harvard's open admit for Extension, but that the drop out rate is horrible--most just not able to cut it or to get their thesis through review. Are the horror stories true?
<<Thanks for the response. The LLM, so I'm told (and is apparent by the "M") is a "Masters". Why would attys get their Masters AFTER their Doctorates? So what do you plan to do with your degree? Do you wish to teach and are seeking another credential even though technically qualified with the J.D., or is it just for pursuit of knowledge and love of all things legal? Thanks!>> There are discussions on this site about the different law degrees and what they "really" are. While called a "JD," the three-year (four-year part-time) first professional degree is considered by many people (especially those countries outside the US) a second bachelor's degree rather than a doctorate (in fact, it's the Bachelor of Laws - LlB - rather than the JD, that's awarded in those countries), so it would totally make sense to do the master's afterwards (and the JSD or Doctor of Juridical Science -- the "real" doctorate -- thereafter). In the US, the LlM generally is an option for foreign law graduates to earn a US law degree, or for US law degree-holders to do further studies or specialize in a particular area of law.
Yet I've come to realize that though the J.S.D is universally considered a doctorate in law, it is NOT the equivalent of a Ph.D. in law. Those schools, particularly in Australia but sort of including UC Berkeley, that offer both degrees draw serious distinctions between them. The J.S.D./S.J.D. is an ADVANCED, PROFESSIONAL degree whereas the Ph.D. is the ACADEMIC RESEARCH doctorate.
I find the program to be rich, creamy, and full of Harvardy goodness. Seriously, I don't know how to say this without being obnoxious, but I've found something that I'm very good at, and while there are indeed people in the Extension degree programs who find it "tough", I don't. It is definitely an intellectually challenging program, and there are definitely people who take courses and find that they're not as comfortable with the work as they'd hoped to be. As for running people out of the program, my experience has been that they go out of their way to retain good people, and they offer more resources and more flexibility than many schools do to help people stay in the program through graduation. Individual courses are open admission. Degree program admission requires the successful completion of three Harvard classes, including a proseminar for the ALM and a comparable course for the ALB. I understand that a fair number of people who attempt the ALM proseminar and the undergrad course that's required for admission to the ALB program don't make it. My proseminar, which was just awful, lost only one of 15 students, IIRC. Given that it was in the summer and therefore quite intensive, that doesn't strike me as excessive. According to my research advisor, the completion rate for the ALM is comparable with other research master's programs. I forget the figures, but when I ran them past a friend who studies higher ed, she thought they were right in line with what she'd expect from a major research university. You might want to check out a recent thread I started titled "my experience in the Harvard ALM" or something similar.
Thanks for the info. Actually, though, I heard from somewhere or another that the dropout rate in the Harvard MLA program is in the range of 75%, and that--not that I want to alarm you (no pun intended)--only half of those who finish their coursework are able to run the thesis gauntlet. It's my perception that most MA or even MS programs are pretty much easy, that you have to make a complete ass of yourself to avoid getting the degree, that the hard part's getting in, and that once you're there, grades are given out like candy on Christmas. True or myth? Just curious.
<<The J.S.D./S.J.D. is an ADVANCED, PROFESSIONAL degree whereas the Ph.D. is the ACADEMIC RESEARCH doctorate.>> Makes sense as this would be similar to the DBA/PhD or EdD/PhD cases. While BOTH types of degrees are full-fledged doctorates requiring intellectual rigor at the advanced, post-master's level, the focus and objective of each program (professional versus research) are different. One is not higher or better than the other; they're just not exactly the same (although in the case of the EdD/PhD, differences have become really blurry that the issue has become simply a matter of titles...)
Well, that's almost exactly what the Aussie University system says, anyway. Academics being the way they are, though, you can just BET that the Ph.D.s look down their long pale noses at the J.S.D.s. They're, you know, involved in TRADE...
Beautifully put. Academics who condescend to those who make the money that supports their leisurely lives are tiresome children. "How dare you actually produce things or make money, why that's not nearly so important as my abstract philosophizing." A short story that I love regarding this phenomenon is Oscar Wilde's "The Remarkable Rocket."
<<Academics being the way they are, though, you can just BET that the Ph.D.s look down their long pale noses at the J.S.D.s. They're, you know, involved in TRADE...>> You can bet your bottom dollar (or should I say 'pound') they do!
It might be easier for them if they didn't look at it as a gauntlet. The process is well-documented, the guidance available is abundant and excellent, and contrary to persistent rumor, the program has no particular difficulty in finding thesis directors from among the faculty. I don't know where your completion numbers come from. Again, the actual ALM numbers, which I don't have handy, are in line with other research master's programs.
I believe there are at least three British distance-learning LL.M. programs that admit students who don't have first professional degrees in law. LL.M. in commercial law University of Northumbria http://law.unn.ac.uk/courses.asp?pageID=9 LL.M. in information technology and telecommunications law University of Strathclyde http://itlaw.law.strath.ac.uk/distlearn/ LL.M. in environmental law and management University of Wales Aberystwyth http://www.aber.ac.uk/law/postgrad/distance/llm.shtml These programs also admit students who DO have first degrees in law, and legal knowledge would certainly be an advantage -- but I don't think any of the three requires previous legal knowledge or experience.
And I suspect that the healthy fees these programs charge was a factor in the University of London overhauling their program and GREATLY upping the fees. Too bad, too. Oh, well, MY program is still dirt cheap! Actually, there really ARE significant differences between the Ph.D. and J.S.D. in Australia: -50,000 word thesis vs. 100,000 word thesis -substantial mastery vs. significant original contribution -coursework is half the program vs. pure research -oral defense not required vs. oral defense required J.S.D. programs are so few and poorly defined in the U.S. that I don't really know what they're like. The fact is, many J.S.D. programs in the U.S. admit or graduate NO students from one year to the next.
The fees are not bad -- certainly not by U.S. standards. Northumbria: GBP 3,200 (US$ 5,994) Strathclyde: GBP 4,800 (US$ 8,990) Exclusive of books and miscellaneous costs. I can't find the cost of the Wales LL.M. right now, but I recall that it was between US$ 11,000 and $12,000.
