What exactly would DETC acceditation do to a Cal D/L JD degree? While it would give the degree itself acknowledgement, it is really the acceptance to the bar (and the ensuing licensure) that matters. Are there actual, tangible benefits? Or is it more the respectability of the thing? Etienne
I can't find the thread, but someone on this board made darned good sense when they suggested that some states, such as Oregon, require that your degree be accredited by an accrediting organization recognized by the US Department of Education, otherwise, your degree cannot be legally claimed in such a state. If your degree is not legal, you may not be able to put "JD" behind your name in that state legally. If more states jump on the Oregon bandwagon to prevent the proliferation of degree mills, then who knows what the future holds for that degree holder. It might be worth it to consider the extra cost of a DETC JD (only Taft and Concord offer that right now, and Taft is less expensive than Concord). On the other hand, if you are only going to practice in California, or you are not seriously considering becoming a lawyer and just doing it for the knowledge, or not going to go for advanced degrees based on your JD, then accreditation at the national level may not be important. I have taken the time to inspect, in detail, Northwestern California, Taft, and Concord. While all three are decent schools, I chose Taft for the following reasons: The President of Taft (David Boyd) is a known and respected entity on this forum and in the California education community; has DETC accreditation; the staff is knowledgeable, friendly, and prompt. Northwestern California's pricing is extremely competitive and tempting; however, I felt that Taft justifies its extra cost. At any rate, no matter which school you choose, I (and those experienced in the matter) would advise that you consider that right from the go you must also purchase a Baby Bar prep course on top of your tuition for the first year. The Fleming's Baby Bar prep (www.lawprepare.com) is most consistently recommended as the best in my 3 months of research on the internet and via phone conversations with current students. You can save money on these programs by purchasing them used, but as I found, eBay is not allowing them to be sold on their web site because Fleming and a handful of other bar prep companies have copyrights disallowing the resale of materials. So you will have to be a little more creative in your search if you want to keep your costs low. I got my copy of Fleming's Baby Bar prep just before eBay removed the sales. For a list of links, forums, and articles on the subject of the distance JD, please take a look at my blog at http://www.dljd.net/2005_01_01_sharkfish_archive.html (feel free to ignore my ranting on the ABA...I use that blog to spout my opinions between the helpful links...that's the price I exact, rather than putting up ads (haha)) It isn't the most organized site due to the chronological order, but if you peruse that link, you can view the Martindale-Hubbell links with where some lawyers have done their distance JD (a lot are from Taft relative to the other schools), etc. I've tried to be helpful, but there are some people here who are actually lawyers and educators that can tell you more.
DETC accreditation won't affect one's ability to get licensed to practice law. But it might still have benefits. If one's employer will pay for tuition reimbursement, attending an accredited school might matter. DETC accreditation might make a difference, even if it's because the employer doesn't have a clue about accreditation (likely). It provides a simple and truthful "yes" to the question "Is it accredited?" Another thing: if we're to place value on the quality control aspects of accreditation, it would seem that DETC accreditation has value to the students as a form of consumer protection. Accredited schools have to be financially viable, for example. Also, DETC will have evaluated the learning processes to ensure they do take place. Given the nature of some of the schools who have qualified their graduates to sit for the Baby Bar and the Bar Exam, I don't think California puts too much into this. Where I do not think DETC will have much sway is with the ABA. I don't think we'll see a 100% online program approved by the ABA for a very looooooooong time, if ever. And when we do, you can bet it will be one offered by a well-respected, long-standing member of the ABA. Why would the ABA take a chance on Taft or Concord when it can wait for Harvard or Duke? Like that's ever gonna happen.... (Just my opinion, of course.)
AgingBetter and Dr. Douglas have pretty well covered it. David Boyd, who actually KNOWS the D/L law school business, never told us exactly why Taft went DETC. He did make the fascinating comment that Taft's most successful students tended to be the ones that qualified for admission through CLEP tests and that he cannot accept these students any longer under DETC rules. DETC apparently has disadvantages as well.
Hmmm... So it does offer some benefits, especially if one wishes to pursue advanced law degrees, such as am LLM or LLD/SJD. That makes sense. But what's this about not being able to accept students through the CLEP route? Why in the world is that? And how does that affect current students, like me, that took that route who are in the middle of their studies when a school becomes DETC accredited? Etienne
It was I... in this thread. I also talked about it -- and maybe even said it better -- in the 9th posting down the page in this one. My, how quickly they forget. [shakes head] I guess it's outta' site, outta' mind around here, eh? Wow. What I wrote really took, didn't it? An "A" for you, young man... an "A," I say! I suspect that in any state in which one holds a law license, one would be permitted to put "J.D." behind his/her name on business cards in states the follow Oregon's lead, even if said degree were technically unaccredited, and even if said state were following Oregon's lead. The bar card, I suspect even a first year law student could successfully argue, probably trumps any sort of Oregon-like legislation. But if one attempted to use said J.D. for virtually any other purpose in such a state... that's where I become concerned. Hard to argue with that. Taft is good. Boyd is good. DETC accreditation is attractive. But I do like Northwestern California University School of Law, generally. It's definitely a winner among the choices. I just wish it were DETC accredited... which, of course, would raise its now-highly-attractive fees up nearer Taft's, so ya' win some and ya' lose some, I guess. 'Cause DETC's admission standards won't permit it, hence any D/L JD program that's DETC-accredited must conform with DETC standards in order for the school offering it to keep said accreditation. Again, see my earlier-referenced thread here. Relax! If you got into a now-DETC-accredited law school before it got its DETC accreditation, but graduate therefrom afterward, then your JD will be fully and officially DETC-accredited! Typically -- and, by the way, Rich Douglas knows far more about this (and can speak to it better) than I -- whatever is the accreditation status of a degree-grantor at the moment it issues its degree to you is also what you get to say the degree is... even if you enrolled before the degree-grantor was so accredited. For example, if one starts at Trinity College and Seminary now, while it's still just an RA candidate; but then it gets its regional accreditation before you finish -- even if only one semester before -- then the degree it grants to you a mere semester later (i.e., at the end of its very first semester as an RA institution, yet your last semester there) is considered regionally-accredited. So, Lawhopes, if you're saying that you now attend Taft, but you entered same via the CLEP route before it became DETC accredited, then count yourself lucky. You got in by a method no longer allowed there, but you'll still get the benefit of being able to say your JD is DETC-accredited once you finish. If so... nice work, Lawhopes! Depending on how successful Taft is at convincing DETC to let it honor the California Bar's desire to allow bar candidates to be able to enter D/L JD programs via the CLEP method (which you'll notice Boyd promised me he'd do in the aforementioned thread), you may end-up being among a tiny handful of people who will have the unusual combination of CLEP-based law school entry and a DETC-accredited JD. You'll be a freak! Count your blessings.
And may I insert here that I have come to admire the tenacity of any D/L Bar J.D. graduate? 864 hours must be logged per year for four years meaning something like 2-1/2 hours EVERY DAY six days a week with a single two week annual vacation. This schedule requires a level of dedication far beyond what was required of me in my full time three year ABA accredited J.D. program. Oh, BTW Lawhopes, DETC won't accredit any American J.S.D. programs. Too bad, but there it is.
Indeed! And ya' know what makes that suck even more? For at least a fair number of at least first year students, 2.5 hours-per-day, six days-a-week won't even begin to cut it -- not at least if they're conscientiously beginning to prepare for the "Baby Bar" as early as they probably should. Between regular study and that, a mere 2.5 hours-a-day -- at least for first year students -- would be a gift.
Heck, no! Not me. But I know two people who are, and one more who did last year, and another two who did two years ago, and one guy who graduated from there about six years ago. And they all say roughly the same thing: NWCULAW is a perfectly good school with perfectly good instructors, but sometimes you gotta' kinda' prod 'em a little and remind them that they're supposed to treat you nice and give you the attention you deserve. Not alot, mind you... and not often... but at least a little... just once in a while. They also say that it's a no-nonsense, do-or-die sort of environment where things get started with little fanfare; and continue along like a slow, behemoth freight train that, because of its inertia, could not be stopped even if it wanted to; and that you just have to get in there, and get started, and keep going, and try not to get depressed, and stay interested, and stay on schedule, and don't get distracted, etc., etc. It's not for the faint-of-heart, they point out; but neither is it something that requires one to be inordinately iron-willed; rather, just tenacious and dedicated and disciplined. And be not afraid to ask lots-o-questions, they admonish, adding that those who live near Sacramento and can partake of the weekly review sessions in the weird, fake court room -- and the Baby Bar review sessions there also -- might be at an ever-so-slight advantage, and may feel a bit more like they're in a more traditional law school environment... ...which, by the way, would seem to support a point that the ABA makes when it cites its manifold reasons for not approving a completely D/L program, to wit: The subtle and intangible benefits of a face-to-face experience, and whatever camaraderie may be derived therefrom. Actually, the sorts of things they complain about most are kinda' silly things... like, for example, one guy really hates that he has to write and give to them 12 post-dated checks at the beginning of each year so he can pay monthly. It just really bothered him to have to do that, for whatever reason. Go figure. Another guy only likes the video-tape-based courses and hates the online stuff; yet another is just the opposite. Some feel challenged to the max, generally; while others wonder what all the fuss is about and seem to skate right through it -- as I'm sure you noticed was true of certain students in your ABA-accredited law school, too. Everyone's different. But one thing's for sure, they say: Good, highly-disciplined, deeply-ingrained study habits that can trace their roots back to the student's high-school days can help alot! There does seem to be among them a universal dread about the Baby Bar, though... lots-o-stress about that, I've noticed. But everyone seems to love the school, generally, for what that's worth. High satisfaction rate, it seems. It's... interesting... er... well.. to me it is, anyway.
So sign up and DO it already! Unless you are already doing some other, lesser course, like a Ph.D. in nuclear microbiology or something... Heck, you're even a CALIFORNIAN! You can USE this thing! Well, if the Bar will just disregard that stretch you did in San Quinten back in 1932...counterfeiting, wasn't it?
Ha! Spoken... er... well... written, like a true lawyer. I, too, see even such impressive endeavors as inherently "lesser." But seriously... there's more to that sentiment on my part than meets the eye. Every time I hear someone complain about slimy lawyers, or make insulting lawyer jokes, I think to myself, "Okay... fine... maybe that's been your experience (or, more likely than not, an experience that you've merely seen others complain about, glibly, in bad movies; and which complaining you now think makes you seem witty to mimic); but if you truly understood how things worked -- I mean truly -- then you'd realize that lawyers who get it; lawyers who understand why they're here and what their role really is... lawyers like that are all that stands between you and the loss-at-the-hands-of-despots of everything our founding fathers intended for you to have, and for which countless legions before you have died. There is nary a more noble profession on the face of the earth, it seems to me. Nary a one." Honesttogod... I believe that. Always have. Always will. [Melodrama notwithstanding] Holy crap! I am now, aren't I? Ugh! I thought I was still a Hoosier! I even still own a house there and spend maybe a third to half-or-more of my time there (though less so, this past year). Jeepers! Ick. A Californian. Now I feel creepy. All that nice weather and everything. I actually like living in a place where the nearest really big city (Chicago -- a mere 25-minute drive away) has (or, more accurately, once had) an ordinance requiring grab railings on the outsides of downtown buildings so that the winter winds won't (literally) lift pedestrians off their feet and deposit them, knees- or butt-first onto the sidewalk. All this warm weather, here... and 300-something days of sunshine. Yech! I miss having the sky cloud-up and get mostly gray a week or so after Thanksgiving and absolutely -- no kidding -- stay that way, without a single sun-penetrating break, straight-thru 'til March or April. [Can you say "serotonin?"] I just loved how the temperature used to drop so low, around the third week of January, and continuing through most of February, that it was actually too cold to snow; and so whatever snow alongside the road that had already fallen just laid there and turned into monster-sized, coal-black, rock-solid ice mounds that lingered long after the big thaw and the first rains two months later. And that smell coming off the steel mills! Mmmm. A veritable cornucopia of airborne chemistry -- killed my ol' man; and has probably planted a little, tiny, microscopic, invisible-in-an-x-ray, yet-to-bloom, enthusiastic, aggressive, little squamous cell carcinoma somewhere down in the achromic, secreting depths of my soon-to-be-wheezing lungs, too, for all I know... just waiting there for me to finally achieve my lifelong goals so it can then rear its ugly head and introduce me, up-close-and-personal, to the receiving end of expensive, energy-sapping, quality-of-life-degrading radiation- and chemo-therapy. [Can't wait!] Yeah, baby... I miss living in Gary, Indiana -- home of the Jackson Five; pre-Wright-Brothers glider experimenter and actual bi-plane inventor Octave Chanute; and, finally, the auspicious, completely-fictitious, and thoroughly conceptually-ridiculous (the latter of which, of course, was the whole point) Gary Conservatory of Music! This warm, beautiful California thing? It's for pussies! [Grrrr.] [So... depressed yet? Need a Zoloft? Or a single-malt scotch... neat... maybe a double? I know I do.] In ways you can't yet even imagine. (Er... well... okay, maybe you could imagine... but only you.) Just watch! No, that was my uncle, ol' "Inkfingers" DesElms. Nice guy, generally, but always smelled kinda' funny; and forgot things alot. Said he never needed to buy illegal drugs to get high... and I never could figure out exactly what he meant by that. [Ha! Just kidding, Etherboy!] Don't worry, Nos... my plans for finally being able to practice in California are moving right along... slowly, granted... but, nevertheles, along, all the same. You'll see. 'Nuff said.
Well, it seems to ME that there is a place in legal education for the "think system". Heaven knows, we could use a bit of it in our political discourse.
