Ph.D or DTh?

Which would be better for teaching religion/theology at a college or university?

I assume that both would be equally acceptable for teaching at a seminary. Am I correct?

 

Hey, Michael!

These are my general impressions:

I beleive you to be correct in stating that PhD's and ThD's are both highly viable degrees for teaching in the seminary setting.

Now, regarding the college and university setting, I think that certain variables come into play. For example, at many Christian colleges or universities, it is not likely to matter whether one has a PhD or ThD. At the other end of the spectrum, however, at a secular university with a religion department, you are likely to find less enthusiasm toward a ThD. You might experience a higher degree of acceptance of a ThD in the "secular" realm if it is from an institution like Harvard Divinity School, University of Basel, or Heidelberg--institutions with exceptional, world-class traditions and faculties.

So, the level of acceptance afforded a ThD will depend upon the type of institutions within which you are seeking to gain a faculty position. I think there is some value in trying to clarify what your professional goal prior to choosing a program if at all possible. However, it is my opinion that if you desire simply to gain a theological/religious degree that has the widest possible employment appeal, the PhD is the wisest and most marketable option.

 

CL,

Hey, good to hear from you again! Thanks for replying!

I was thinking along those same lines. I believe the Ph.D would be the wisest path; it would probably give more options for teaching positions.

The foreign schools I've found that offer Ph.D's in theology are GST/Potch, University of the Free State, U. of Pretoria, and Charles Sturt, but I'm not sure Sturt would allow foreign DL students to enroll.

Zululand and UNISA only offer the DTh in theology; these would be my two top choices otherwise.

If you or anyone else knows of others, please let me know.

 

Well, I hear the University of the Free State has a wonderful physics program.

(Sorry, that had to be said...)

Sturt should ideally let you into the Ph.D. program in theology, as I received a very favorable response when I enquired about their Ph.D. in professional and applied ethics about 18 months ago.

There are really quite a few other options -- University of Wales, Lampeter, for one, Australian Catholic University (including a new interdisciplinary subfaculty in philosophy and theology) for another -- but speaking from experience as a guy who saw the Union Institute as his only doctoral option when he started the HUX program in Fall '97, I suggest waiting until you're almost finished with your master's before making concrete doctoral plans. There's no telling what might open up between now and then.

Good luck!


Peace,



------------------
Tom Head
www.tomhead.net

 

Hey, Michael!

These are all great options. Would the University of the Orange Free State really allow you to undertake a PhD externally? If so, this is very significant! They have one of the best theological faculties in all of South Africa.

I agree that many more options are likely to crop up between now and the time you are prepared to undertake doctoral study. Keep your eyes open--some outstanding and presently-unforeseen options are apt to arise. Yet, I see nothing wrong with you trying to sort out some more general questions about where you're going with your doctoral studies. Is the PhD the degree for me, or will some other similar degree (e.g., DTh) meet my needs? What do I wish to study? Historical Theology? Systematic Theology? Some other more narrowly specialized field of study? As you begin to arrive at answers to these questions, it will help provide a sense of direction that will narrow the field of potential institutions through which you might study, and hopefully ultimately will help to simplify your search.

I do know of a handful of other reputable institutions not popularized on this discussion forum that offer doctoral degrees in theology at a distance. However, they pretty much all require at least a week or two in residence each year. Let me know if you're interested. I'll be glad to point you in the right direction.

 

Michael,

Certainly, both the Ph.D. and D.Th./Th.D. would be recognized in a seminary setting as par for the course. However, given the choice, I personally would choose the Ph.D., as it would probably have more utility (or at least it would be more easily recognized) once one moved beyond the seminary/Bible college scenario.

This is one reason I did not choose Unisa. While Unisa is larger and more well known than Potchefstroom (both are about the same age and have the same recognition from SA), I wanted the Ph.D. rather than the D.Th.

Russell

 

Depends on what you want to teach, I guess. And where. Religious studies and Christian theology can be two different (though closely related) subjects.

I think that typically religious studies is much broader in scope than theology. Here's how one of America's leading religious studies departments describes their departmental concentrations:
http://www.religion.ucsb.edu/areas.html

Compare this stuff to a typical seminary curriculum, particularly one of the more evangelical sort. Two different worlds.

I'd say that the issue is less the degree title than what that title implies about one's preparation and emphasis. The theology degree seems to imply an education steeped in the intricacies of the Christian tradition, and an approach that accepts that tradition as given and then goes from there.

The Ph.D. might suggest a more detached approach. And if a job candidate were expected to teach courses in non-Christian traditions or in comparative subjects, an appropriately prepared Ph.D. would probably have an edge.

The reverse might be true in an evangelical seminary or someplace like that, where the assignment is to teach specifically Christian subjects, I guess.

 

As always, very sound reasoning from Russell. I agree with his analysis.

A Ph.D. will probably have more appeal beyond the seminary or Christian University. If you intend to concentrate your efforts at a Christian University or Seminary then my guess is that it will not matter whether you get a Th.D or Ph.D. The Th.D. is the academic equivalent of a Ph.D. In the secular world, as Bill Dayson points out, Th.D. says "Christian Theology" as opposed to a more generic approach to the field of religion.

All things being equal, I would have chosen a Ph.D. program for the simply reason of versatility in both the secular and Christian spheres.

North

 

Very good and sound comments from all of you; I appreciate it.

If it's true that a PhD would provide more teaching options--and I believe it is true--then that raises the same question about an MA as opposed to an MTh. Now I realize, as has been pointed out, that an MTh is a higher degree in the U.S. than an MA, but would an MA provide more teaching options than the MTh, in the same way that a PhD would more so than a DTh?

 

My answer to this question is simply, "I don't think so," for the following reasons: if your question follows on the heals of the reasoning articulated above, about the acceptability of certain degrees within both "Christian" and "secular" academic realms, then the question you've formulated seems quite logical. The only problem is that you are unlikely to gain a professorship at a secular university with only a master's degree, whether it be an MA or an MTh. The same rings true with many Christian institutions; they simply are looking for someone with a higher level of preparation. However, among the many Christian institutions that might hire you with a master's degree only, I beleive that you would be in better standing with an MTh than an MA, as has been suggested here previously.

 

I think it would be responsible of us at this point to acknowledge that the conversation we are carrying on here is a distinctively (North?)American one. Recently, I have been convicted by the input of various non-American partipants in this discussion forum who suggest that the discussions taking place here are often too narrowly American in perspective. Clearly, our concern over PhD versus ThD is not relevant to many other countries, such as South Africa or Germany, where it is common and customary for theological faculties to be linked with state universities. Of course, my mentioning this here adds nothing to our discussion. However, I do wish for all of the non-Americans following this conversation (and others like it) to know that we are not trying to be exclusive; we merely are trying to navigate our way through the distinctive, quirky peculiarities of our American system. At the same time, this discussion forum is an international body, so we would greatly appreciate and value input from folks outside of our "view from here" who might be able to expand our perspective.

It seems that our conversations here about theology and religion programs, while focusing mostly on foreign degrees, are framed almost exclusively within the context of our needs as North American students. We're asking questions like, "What will be respected in America?" or "What will get me a job in America?". While this is fine, I would love to hear more from folks from other corners of the world. Are you out there? We'd like to learn from you.

Is there anyone from the UK who can provide feedback about how Greenwich School of Theology is viewed in your country? Anyone from South Africa who might be able to attest to the respectability of the University of Zululand? Any Australians who can tell us about Coolamon College? I think this is valid, because, as we Americans go about formulating our opinions of these institutions, we have much to gain from hearing an "insider's" perspective.

 

I'm not sure that I agree with that.

If a person intends to teach the history, philosophy or phenomenology of religion, comparative religion, Buddhist studies, Hellenistic religion, Chinese religious thought, or the sociology, psychology or anthropology of religion, then I'd recommend they go with a Ph.D. in a relevant concentration.

But if they were interested in Christology, ecclesiology, eschatology, moral theology, pastoral theology, soteriology, pneumatology and so on, a Th.D. might make more sense.

The point is less whether you intend to teach in a state or church-related university than whether you intend to teach religion (broadly conceived) or Christian theology.

 

This is absolutely, positively true when it comes to U.S. Th.D.'s.

However:

- The University of South Africa offers a Th.D. in religious studies. (This made me do a double-take, too, but it's apparently not an uncommon thing.)

- Ann Foerst, the (interfaith) theological advisor to MIT's artificial intelligence program, holds a D.Theol. from a major German university.

- In my various foreign-university hunts, I've run across more than a few comparative religion professors with Th.D.'s or D.Theol.'s rather than Ph.D.'s. In such cases, said degrees were usually (but not always) earned in non-English-speaking countries.


Peace,

------------------
Tom Head
www.tomhead.net

 

I would like to teach Christian religion, history, and theology, whether in a state university or Christian college, or seminary. In perusing secular college catalogs, I don't believe I've ever run across a professor with a DTh--or an MTh either, for that matter. The sequence of degrees is most commonly BA, MA, PhD. Sometimes I've seen variations--perhaps both an MA and an MDiv--but I don't ever recall seeing an MTh and a DTh, although I'm sure there are exceptions. Of course, catalogs from Christian colleges and seminaries show professors with both MA's and MTh's, PhD's and DTh's, but I must say even there I find the PhD much more prevalent than the DTh; as far as master's degrees, I've found many professors with MTh's in Christian institutions, but quite often these are in combination with MA or MDiv degrees.

So, if I go with an MTh and then a DTh, I'm wondering if I'll be limiting my teaching options. If I go the MA and PhD route, though, I've considerably limited my choice of schools.

I hope all of you will continue to comment; you've been very helpful and insightful.

 

Hmmm...

On the matter of Ph.D.'s versus Th.D.'s, I agree with pretty much everyone else: I'd go with the Ph.D. (and plan to myself). It's a more versatile degree, especially if you might be teaching at a secular university.

On the matter of the M.A. versus the Th.M., it's a trickier matter because, here in the U.S., they follow different tracks:

B.A. --> M.A.
versus
B.A. --> M.Div. --> Th.M.

So the Th.M. is certainly a higher degree in a U.S. context -- but will there be versatility problems? It's hard to say. And will it be seen as a higher degree if you don't have an M.Div.? Again, hard to say. I think it will depend mostly on the field you specialize in. Steve Levicoff's marketable thang was his established reputation in religion and law -- his Ph.D. was in same, and he wrote two books on the subject (published through Baker and Moody). If he were a general theologian and didn't have the publications under his belt, I don't think he would have been as successful with those specific degrees. But then if he had specialized equally ferociously in Reformed epistemology, I'm sure he would have been able to spin that off into a teaching gig as well.

So I guess my suggestion would be "Find something that you can sell a seminary or secular university that it couldn't just as easily buy somewhere else." If you can do that, I don't think it'll matter what kind of degree you have as long as it meets GAAP.


Peace,

------------------
Tom Head
www.tomhead.net

 

This is certainly true. Keep in mind, however, that Greenwich School of Theology (founded in 1957) awards no degrees of its own, i.e., it is not a degree granting institution. In the SATS/UZ arrangement for example, both SATS and UZ offer degrees. In the PU/GST arrangement only PU awards degrees. GST is in essence an extension of PU.

GST is accredited by the Open and Distance Learning Quality Council (UK) and also by Potchefstroom University (SA). As a fully accredited school of PU, GST offers courses of study which lead to a PU degree. All degrees are awarded by PU, not GST.

I think it is important to understand this distinction when considering how a school is viewed.

Russell

 

Russell, I certainly agree with you. In my dialogue with certain members of the British academic community, some have expressed confusion at why GST chose to be affiliated with a South African university when opportunities for such affiliation are certainly available in the UK. Of course, I happen to know the answer to this question because GST's Governor has spelled out their reasons for me. For me personally, the answers that I have received from the folks at GST more than outweigh the questions that anyone else has raised.

My interest in gaining the "insider's" perspective relates not so much to the "official" status of any school (i.e., accreditation, degree granting status, or university affiliation), but rather with the "word on the street," so to speak. How is a given institution viewed by peer institutions within its own culture? For example, lets say I decided to earn a DTh from University of Zululand. Upon completion of this degree, I apply for a faculty position at Columbia International University in South Carolina. After I submit my resume, it falls into the hands of a key faculty board member, John Smith, who happened to earn his DTh from Stellenbosch in South Africa several years back. My resume catches his eye, because he is intrigued by the fact that we share in common the possession of a South African credential. "Hm, Zululand...", he says, "I don't know much about that particular school." Interested in learning a bit more, he decides to email an old friend on the faculty of Stellenbosch, Johannes Vander Schmitz, to inquire about Zululand. At this point, Professor Vander Schmitz possesses great influence in helping to determine my success as a candidate. Depending upon his personal assessment of Zululand, or the perspective prevalent within the academic community to which he belongs, he can either affirm, or cast doubt upon, the viability of the degree I have earned. (of course, I am using Zululand strictly as an example, and mean to imply nothing about the school here.)

Similarly, if we are totally honest, there are accredited schools here in the US that you and I, for whatever reason, would not recommend that our friends from Africa or Europe come to this country to attend. Some schools, despite their accreditation, simply lack the strength of reputation or sufficient reputation in a given area of study. So, just as it would be sensible for me to ask a theologian from North Carolina to give me his impressions about Southeastern Baptist Seminary, or the Charlotte braches of RTS or G-CTS, or Hood Theological Seminary, etc., I think it's perfectly valid and quite beneficial to get a sense of how a particular institution is viewed in its given "home" academic community. This is precisely the dialogue that has taken place with reference to Liberty University on this forum; its offical status hasn't been called into question, but its reputation amongst certain sectors of the academic community has.

I don't think that this should be the "end-all" in choosing a school. However, if all of the theologians in Belgium have nothing but nastiness to say about a particular school you're considering attending there, I think that should be taken to heart, regarless of whether or not that school possesses the proper GAAP standing. My reasoning, as one who is still pretty much at "entry level" within the academic community, is that, when it boils down to it, reputation goes a long way in determining how widely your degree credential will be accepted (and, of course, this concern is only valid if one's motivation for earning an advanced degree involves a desire to function within the academic community).

Of course, by singling out GST, I don't in any way mean to call it into question. I simply am interested to know how British folk view this school, particularly because I am so impressed by it and interested in it. Of course, we know that PUCHE is highly respected in South Africa. But, what is thought of GST in the UK? People there can provide perspective that you and I can't possess. Of course, I know it is accreditted, and I believe it to be an outstanding institution. Yet, I'd just like to get the "insider" perspective, so that I can arrive at the fullest and most developed impression of this school possible.

by way of comparison, my thoughts are drawn to Nazarene Theological College, which is validated by the University of Manchester. Manchester, of course, is one of the most celebrated institutions in the UK; so, anyone possessing a Manchester degree is in possession of a highly respected credential. Yet, Nazarene Theological College also has an outstanding reputation entirely independent of Manchester. Prominent individuals like John Stott and F. F. Bruce have sung the praises of NTS, suggesting that this is a great institution, regardless of its affiliation with Manchester. Of course, Manchester would never choose to align itself with a subpar theological college; similarly, I believe that PUCHE also would never align itself with a subpar theological college. But, it's good to know what others are thinking.

Anyhow, I babble. Thanks for prodding me to clarify a bit.

CL
A PUCHE Hopeful

 

Again, I agree with Tom Head that what you are suggesting here is very much true where American academic categories are concerned. However, these distinctions are definately not so hard and fast in other cultures. The handful of examples Tom cited provide us just a little taste of this fact.

 

CL,

Your point is well-taken.

BTW, could you tell me about those DL doctorates that you mentioned earlier which require a week or two of residency? If I go the PhD route instead of the DTh, I need all the options I can find. Right now, the only affordable DL PhD possibilities I know of are GST/Potch, University of Pretoria, and University of the Free State, and I'm not completely certain of the latter two--that is, I'm not sure the degree could be earned totally non-residentially.

 

Certainly, and I agree! Before enrolling at PU/GST I corresponded with a number of people regarding the acceptance of the PU degree, e.g., AACRAO, SAQA, several US universities, SA Ministry of Education, several PU/GST graduates, ODLQC (UK), graduates of other non-US GAAP research doctoral programs, US Embassy in SA, SA Embassy in the US, and of course the venerable John Bear, and numerous others.

This may seem like a bit much in terms of verification of a PU credential, however, several factors were at work: 1)My other degrees (BA,MA,DMin) were from RA US schools;
2)I was not familiar, nor had I ever dealt with a non-US program; 3)The program I chose had to be a credible one, nothing hinting of a degree mill; 4)I wanted a degree that would be recognized in the US as legitimate, credible and would be marketable; 5)The cost had to be within my budget.

Robert Watkins, registrar at the University of Texas-Austin, and also a member of AACRAO, told me on several occasions that a PU Ph.D. would be recognized in the US as equal to a RA Ph.D. Also, Dale Goff, an administrative member of AACRAO, told me that PU was the institutional equivalent of a RA school.

PU meets GAAP criteria, is part of the 21 university system of South Africa, is over 130 years old, has over 15,000 students, over 475 academic staff, has 13 accredited schools (one of which is GST), several prominent faculties (e.g., business, education, theology, pharmaceutical, etc).

So, as I too have waxed long, my purpose in all the preliminary research was to choose a credible school. So far, my experience with PU/GST has been very positive.

Russell