The ABA and Legal Education

A lawyer who graduated from Oak Brook college of law did some research on the ABA and its requirements for membership. It is fascinating to read about what exactly is necessary to become a member and make your own judgement as to how trivial or important the criteria.

http://www.dljd.net/2005/01/aba-monopoly-exposed.html

 

There's nothing new here, really.

As to whether the ABA accreditation requirements are trivial and irrelevant or vital to a good legal education, for me anyway, the jury is still out.

There are a few states that host unaccredited schools; many in California, two in Alabama, two in New England, one in Tennessee. These states ought to present an opportunity to measure the relative worth of ABA standards. There are too many independant variables. The California experiment for instance shows that non ABA schools almost uniformly show Bar exam passage rates substantially below that of ABA schools. However, that may be as much a function of pre legal prep as school quality. Non academic programs such as apprenticeships fare even worse.

Also, though we refer to it a lot on this forum, Bar passage rates are not the best measure of school performance. Law schools don't exist to prepare Bar takers; they exist to train lawyers and legal scholars.

I have not seen ANY solid research in this area.

 

Can you tell me New England schools ?

thanks

 

Nosborne,

by unaccredited do you mean ABA accredited?


Kevin

 

Nosborne,

Please disregard. I did find an interesting one in Alabama, Birmingham School of Law. BSL is unaccredited by anybody and yet graduates can sit for the Alabama Bar. Courses are only $300 each. Not DL however.

 

Neither Southern New England School of Law nor Mass. Law School are ABA accredited.

In this context, by "accredited" I mean ABA accredited.

There are non ABA schools that are regionally accredited such as University of LaVern, DETC accredited, such as Taft University, and CalBar accredited, such as Monterrey Law School.

Accreditation other than by the ABA is significant and should not be discounted in selecting a law school. However, when considering the national utility of a J.D. degree, ABA accreditation is by far the single most important factor.

 

Perhaps not to you, but I haven't found these specifics on this board (but that could be because of my choice of search terms).

I think some of the requirements are completely illegitimate. A library, for goodness sakes? Six full time profs that work 8 hours per week? I hardly believe these contribute to ABA bar passing rates.

I am of the opinion that the correspondence schools do not do as well simply because of their open admissions policy. If they screened candidates using the LSAT, there would be a marked improvement.

I do not advocate this change in admissions policy, however. I think that if a person wants to try, have at it, no barriers.

 

I don't mean to be rude here, but your opinion is not the same thing as solid research.

Believe me, in my present job, I am constantly REMINDED that my opinion doesn't substitute for research!

If you wanted, I could give you several reasons why access to an exhaustive, paper library as well as on line resources is a good idea for law students and professors, why full-time faculty is a good thing, why teaching loads low enough to allow full time faculty time to research and publish is important to our national system of legal education...

I could talk about the importance of clinical experiences in forming the attitude lawyers should have to the law and the duties lawyers have to society. I could go on about the influence that law professors should have, and occasionally do have, on the development of the law and public policy and how important exposure to this is in the growing of the next generation of law professors and legal scholars.

If I really wanted to stretch a point, I could even point out that law journals are themselves important sources of law and understanding of law. No D/L school of which I am aware published a law journal. No D/L law school I know of conducts and publishes research.

But again, MY opinions are no substitute for research. I would be speculating merely for the sake of hearing myself talk.

If you do a search on this board for my posts, you will find that I am in no way an enemy of non ABA law schools. I am no fan of the American system of legal education but many of its faults apply equally to both correspondence and unaccredted J.D. programs and to ABA programs.

There is ONE thing I can suggest for your consideration: In the U.S., unlike in other common law countries, the J.D. degree is both the complete academic preparation for law practice AND the sole required credential to teach in a law school. If the U.S. followed the example of the U.K., and considered the J.D. as the "first professional degree" and nothing more, and required extensive supervised practice experience after graduation, it would be easier for the legal education system to reduce its requirements. But it's not. The J.D. graduate is but a passing grade on the bar exam from being a full fledged lawyer and but a successful hiring interview from being a law professor.

One last thought: The author's thoughts about anti trust and unconstitutionality have been tried and rejected in the Courts. Whether he thinks it a sham or not, the ABA does not set bar admission standards. The state supreme courts and occasionally state legislatures do.

The author chose to take a particular approach to his legal education. He knew full well that there would be severe restrictions on the utility of his J.D. It is appropriate for him to work toward changing the rules if he thinks they should be changed. It is NOT appropriate for him to describe himself, even by implication, as a victim.

 

I'm surprised, Nosborne, at the content of your discussion.

I've read many many of your posts, and you always chime in and give your support to those who wish to continue their legal education via distance learning. I see that I missed the subtlety that you (seem to) believe that non-ABA education is only okay if the student has no other choice. Fine.

Maybe I'm having an off day, but I never expected you to read that article and characterize its author as someone claiming to be a victim.

I think his research is helpful to those considering this option because you get a thorough idea of the issues involved. One could look to his writing and do research of one's own to ensure this decision to do a dl jd is the "right" one.

I resent all attempts at the ABA to shut out valuable forms of education that threaten their position. They barely allow distance learning education for LLM programs.

I am not against the ABA, nor do I believe I am one of their victims.

I am totally against any agency that pretends to act in the interest of the consumer that is actuall a fiefdom of sorts for its members.

I think anyone, particularly when it comes to legal education, should be able to participate in this great nation's legal system, IF they are properly prepared.

I have listed on my site several lawyers who are successfully practicing after a distance learning JD education, which flies in the face of the ABAs opinion "their way is the only way."

Again, if LSATs and actual admissions standards were set up, I think DL JD students would be just as successful in bar passing rates as their traditional counterparts. But the open admissions policy is something I think is part and parcel of the legal profession: total and justifiable profit motive.

I think most lawyers are in it for the money, anyway, and should therefore understand.

At any rate, we agree with each other for the most part.

 

Wait a minute! I have always said that one should definately get the ABA degree if there is any doubt at all that a non ABA degree will meet one's future requirements.

I have ALSO said that if I were a Californian and certain that I wanted to work in the public sector or in public interest law, that I would CAREFULLY consider whether an unaccredited J.D. might not be the best choice.

The student needs to make informed choices, that's all, and should not be heard to complain of the foreseeable consequences of his choice.

What I tried to say in my last post is that I DON'T KNOW whether the ABA is correct in imposing their requirements for accreditation. That's all.

Looking only at Bar passage rates in the Californian system, I'd say that the whole ABA package works better over all than the non ABA packages out there BUT I don't know whether it is the quality of the program or the quality of the student.

Furthermore, although the bar exam as presently constituted is a better gauge of practice competence than it was when I took it, I don't know whether bar passage rates are a valid indicator of the quality of a legal education.

If you want to get a D/L J.D., good for you! But be aware that there are real, severe consequences to that choice in terms of limited utility. Similarly, if you choose to attend an ABA school, be aware that there will be a severe consequence in the form of expense.

The author's research is of doubtful value. He attacks the ABA standards with NO research into the whys and wherefores. He appeals to his idea of common sense but I can't see that he has made any effort at all to understand the reasons behind the requirements.

 

I wonder if the ABA has such a justification in writing somewhere?

 

You could start at their web site, www.abanet.org under the section on legal education and admissions to the bar.

You know, in this D/L business, it's very easy to commit what positivist legal philosphers term the "natural law fallacy", confusing "What OUGHT to be" with "What IS".

This forum is about informing people of the D/L options that are available and assisting them to make knowledgeble, informed choices.

When you chose your law school, you have to deal with what IS and disregard what OUGHT to be.

Once you are in a position to try and affect what IS, got for it! But in the meantime, choose wisely, as the knight said in Indiana Jones.

 

Thanks for all your assistance.

Are you implying I have no right to post my disagreement with the ABAs policies?

I have read a great deal of excellent information on this board, but I never ran across a listing of the ABA requirements. I think this is relevant to DegreeInfo readers choosing to go the DL JD route.

I am always concerned when I don't see educated people properly questioning the status quo

 

Both the unaccredited New England schools (Massachusetts School of Law and Southern New England School of Law) are here in Massachusetts. (We Yankees all got together and divvied up New England into states a while back.)

They may both be unaccredited, but MSL has been in negotiation and litigation with the ABA for years trying to gain accreditation. The MSL program is mainly practical and is too different from traditional legal education to easily fit the ABA's standards.

SNESL (pronounced "sneezle") has just been acquired by the University of Massachusetts system to be merged with UMass-Dartmouth and become the Commonwealth's first public law school. Probably the biggest point of concern and debate has been about the amount of time and money that will be required in order for the school to gain accreditation.

I don't know what the ultimate result for MSL will be since neither they nor the ABA seem likely to budge, but UMass intends to invest whatever is needed, and SNESL won't remain unaccredited for very long.

 

CERTAINLY it is appropriate to post one's differences with the ABA. But really, you know, opinions posted here are subject to challenge!

Did I ask you if you are presently enrolled in a J.D. program?

 

MLS has repeatedly lost in its litigation efforts to force the ABA to accredit them. That's pretty much a dead letter at this point, I think.

The thing that REALLY bothers me about both SNESL and MLS is, try as I might, I could NOT find any statement on their web sites concerning their lack of ABA accreditation, or indeed, ANY information concerning accreditation or Bar eligibility.

So UMass finally decided to offer the public a law school? Good. I was astonished a few years ago to learn that there was no public law school in Mass. Do you happen to know whether there was any sort of tution reduction for Mass students at UConn or Maine?

As for MLS, they REALLY differ with the ABA over admissions policy in that MLS refuses to use the LSAT or devise a similar test for themselves. They've got some other, almost equally stubborn notions regarding part time faculty and such...some of which I actually kind of agree with.

 

You know it's a dead letter, and I know it's a dead letter, but every time the MSL folks pop up in the news, they're talking ABA accreditation. It may not be possible to reason with them.

I could swear that SNESL used to have something about its accreditation status on its website, but you're right, there's nothing. It's fairly shocking. And I'd almost expect the MSL folks to wear their outsider status like a badge at this point.

The New England Higher Education Compact offers reduced tuition to students whose home states have no public program in their field. Here's the UConn prices. Not a bad discount.

I'm a lot more skeptical about nontraditional educational approaches than a lot of folks around here. Nevertheless, I've heard some very good things about MSL's education, and some friends who've checked the program out were very impressed with how it would fit their educational needs.

Doesn't California Western have an accredited program with a heavily practical curriculum?

 

IN RE ABA = weighs up more the facilities and the libraries; no the education plan and the Quality of professors.

Nosborne is accurate, in the democratic US, the first choice must be ABA, after that, a State Approved or DETC.

If you choose DETC or a State Approved, the apprentice must know very well, the boundaries that the degree may have.

However, after a first-class analysis of the limits, a good quality State Approved or DETC Law school is an excellent choice.

Keep in mind, IN TOTO even with a Law Detc or State Approved university and the respective State License, the Doctor of Jurisprudence degree may open much doors; and win a LITTLE more of $$.