On this thread I asked about transfering my courses to a new seminary. Several were suggested, such as Liberty, University of Tartu and the South African universities. Some I am still waiting to hear from. Tartu has little in English, and teach via courses. I have asked if they will award degrees based upon research, but they haven't written back about that yet. South Africa must be on holiday because not one of the universities/seminaries has responded as of yet. Liberty wrote back and spoke of their MAR degree, which I am looking into. But Levicoff made a comment in that thread that I want to ask about. He mentioned that most Seminaries wanted their faculty to have an MDiv as a minimun requirement rather than an MA or MMin. Did I understand that correctly? But isn't an MA the degree that leads toward a PhD, while an MDiv is more of a professional degree? So if I were to intend to continue on toward a doctorate, then would an MA be more appropriate? Of course, some places, most notably South Africa have the MTh and Dth, so where do those fit in? I guess I just want some advice on the best path toward a PhD (or DTh). I am not as interested in a DMin. Thanks again, clint
I think it's important to keep the nature of seminaries in mind . . . The usual academic path is M.A. to Ph.D. But seminaries are (1) professional in nature, and (2) overtly sectarian. Therefore, it is common for the degree path for a seminary professor to be M.Div., possibly (but not necessarily) followed by a Th.M., and then a Ph.D. or Th.D. (Only active pastors generally pursue the D.Min.) Yes, the M.Div. is professional rather than academic - as we normally user those terms. However, it is also more comprehensive, averaging 90 semester hours for the M.Div. as opposed to 30-60 semester hours for the M.A. Moreover, the M.Div., by nature includes two foreign languages, generally Hebrew and Koine Greek. The primary "student market" at seminaries is considered pastoral in nature, even though M.Div. students may be outnumbered by M.A. students at some seminaries. Therefore, their rationale is that the professors should have pastoral as well as academic degrees. Any exceptions will be in strictly academic areas such as O.T. or N.T. studies, church history, etc. For what it's worth, I taught at a regionally and ATS-accredited seminary for six years. My fields (primarily law and counseling) were specialized, and as a published author, I could write my own ticket as an adjunct professor. But they made it crystal clear that I would not be considered as a full-time faculty member (which was not my goal anyway) because I did not hold an M.Div. In other words, you can get your foot in the door, but for a full-time post, an M.Div. is a good way to hedge your bets. The other angle I mentioned above is that seminaries are, to coin a legal term, pervasively sectarian. You won't find Lutherans, Baptists, or other Calvinists teaching at a Methodist or Catholic seminary, nor vice versa. Nor a Pentecostal teaching at a Fundamentalist seminary (nor, obviously, vice versa). There is a pervading philosophy that if you are going to teach at "our" school, you must be "one of us." (The school at which I taught was a conservative seminary that leaned toward the Presbyterian side, and my presence there was more than unusual - I'm liberal, gay, and Jewish, although I hold an evangelical theology. But with a Ph.D. focus in church-state issues, I had the edge when it came to teaching law. And I happened to get my foot in the door when I used their library while pursuing my master's in theology and law, then taught a course there at no charge for my doctoral internship in religion and law. Without that "in," I never would have been admitted to faculty status because I was an outsider.) Remember that teaching in the field of religion is just as competitive as teaching in any secular field. Therefore, consider now what your professional goals are, and where you might be able to fulfill them - then tailor your education accordingly. All of this, of course, applies to seminaries in the States (and I have been either an adjunct professor or visiting lecturer at several seminaries and Bible colleges, all regionally and/or ATS accredited and always at the graduate level). My take, however, is that from a denominational perspective, the sectarian factor is universal. ______________________ Note: The Th.M. here in the U.S. usually means 30 semester hours beyond the M.Div., and ATS-accredited schools require a pre-requisite for Th.M. studies. In Europe, however, the Th.M. or M.Th. is a stand-alone degree that does not require a pre-requisite M.Div.
Thanks Steve, Your insight is appreciated. I understand a bit more about Seminaries, in general, I think. I assume somewhere like Fuller would be an exception to some of your sectarian comments. But it isn't difficult to understand that the sectarianism is fairly pervasive in most places. So does this apply to college and university settings, as well? thanks, clint
Yeah, I know, I need to use the phone...I have had email contact with a couple of the SA folks before and it worked ok, so I was hoping this would as well. New info on the Tartu option, apparently, it may be possible to do a research Masters. Cost is about $1500 per year (depending on exchange rate). We are looking into the possibilities. Thanks, clint
Other than SATS, my experience is that they won't answer e-mails in a worthwhile way. I can think of one widely touted faculty of theology which would occasionally answer, but in so cryptic a fashion that one needed to call them to find out what anything meant--and then they were unsure, dragging simple questions out for month after month until I gave up on them. Another, which is linked to a Brit school--and one gets charged mucho extra for the privilege--never answered at all (nor did the adviser at the Brit end; I pulled out after wasting some money with this two-headed enterprise). A third actually had a guy who responded promptly and helpfully, but the school was eaten alive by Asmalmania (the infamous merger frenzy engineered by the ridiculous minister of education--remember Alexander the Barbarian at Persepolis and you get the idea).
Thanks Bill, I suspected as much. Probably true for all of the South African schools. I have emailed SATS before about a particular course and received a prompt response. I have emailed with UNIZUL in the past, but not the theology dept. A few times I have inquired with UNISA back when I was pondering going on with English and their response was within a few days. This time, I emailed most of them with a theology faculty just to see what my options were and none of them have written back. Interestingly, Univ of Tartu, here in Estonia took a couple of days to get started writing back, but since he started my correspondent there has been very punctual and helpful. I don't guess I am in any hurry really. Whatever school I end up with either will let me enroll and begin at any time, or else I will have to wait until the summer or fall anyway, so its not like I have to have an answer by tomorrow. thanks guys, clint
Some seminaries cross denominational boundaries - Fuller is a great example. However, even so-called non-denominational schools will generally hire faculty based on compatability with specific doctrines - a pre-millenial seminary will not hire post-millenial faculty, for example, nor would a seminary that subscribes to evidential apologetics hire an apologist who subscribes to VanTilian presuppositionalism. Another area commonly used as a criterion is whether a person subscribes to a literal seven-day creation versus creation over a longer period. Many Evangelical, Fundamentalist or Pentecostal seminaries claim to be non-denominational, but when the rubber meets the road they can still be quite doctrinnaire. Does this apply to college and university settings? In some cases, yes. Liberal colleges balk at conservative faculty members, and vice versa. This can also impact, for lack of a better term, doctrinal issues in the secular sense - for example, a law school that buys into an evolving standard of constitutional law would not likely hire a professor who subscribes to original intent. Additionally, some psychology programs tend to favor professors who subscribe to specific schools of thinking (such as Freud versus Jung or Maslow). In short, the "we're right, everyone else is wrong" mentality is, by no means, limited to the religious fields.
I understand and suppose I would expect it to be that way. Not saying I like it, but would expect it. Thanks Steve. I must say that I am optimistic about the The University of Tartu here in Estonia. While they are not a DL school in any sense of the word, I think they may work with me some since I happen to live here and with a few campus visits and workshops, they will let me do the vast majority of a Masters degree via research and independent study. Not a done deal, but looking better every day, so far. So I don't guess I can recommend them to everyone to use, since it would be fairly difficult for you to accomplish the short residencies, but it does work good for me. If I learn more about any opportunity for others to use them, then I will pass it along. clint
