Need a new seminary (maybe)

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by cdhale, Jan 5, 2005.

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  1. cdhale

    cdhale Member

    Due to extreme negligence on my part, I didn't realize that ATS only allowed 18 semester hours for a graduate degree to be earned via DL. So now I find myself with 18 semester hours plus 9 hours advanced placement, in other words, half way to my MA in Christian Ministry.

    Since I live in Estonia, not much chance of me making a short course or anything in the near future, so...

    I need a new University or Seminary to which I can transfer my hours and continue my degree. I prefer either RA or GAAP. For the time being, I don't want to get into a NA program.

    I know South Africa is a possibility, does anyone know if my US courses will have any impact upon their programs (such as shortening the amount of time, or number of modules needed)?

    Money is a factor, but not too big. My sponsoring congregation back in Texas foots the bill, but only up to $1500 per year. So far that has worked out to about 3 classes per year at my current school.

    Now, so far, I haven't heard from my advisor yet that all is for naught at Abilene Christian, but I wanted to go ahead and get a jump on the next step if it turns out to be that I cannot continue my current degree plan.

    thanks,
    clint
     
  2. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Has the University of Tartu anything? You can't beat that for historic prestige. Imagine standing in the footsteps of people like Theodosius Harnack (the good Harnack) and my late revered friend and churchly hero, the monumental Syriac scholar Arthur Voobus. Also, aren't there some British schools affiliated with the churches of Christ?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2005
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Since you mentioned ATS, which is NA, why not look at TRACS schools? I know you said you didn't want to go NA, but ATS is NA.
     
  4. cdhale

    cdhale Member

    Re: Re: Need a new seminary (maybe)

    Yeah, go figure. ACU is also RA, as you know. That is really what I wanted, with ATS as a bonus.

    Would TRACS be as acceptable in academic circles? Would I be able to teach at a collegiate level with the degree?

    That is the main reason I prefer something RA, or GAAP.

    clint
     
  5. cdhale

    cdhale Member

    Good suggestion. I will contact them and see. (Tartu, I mean). Everything here is in Estonian, except Concordia, but they are wayyyyyy too expensive for me, plus they are mainly a business school here.

    Tartu will definitely have some theological offerings, if I can get someone to work in English with me. My estonian is about 3rd grade level, not sufficient for dissertations.

    I don't think there are any British schools that are accredited in any real way with the CoC. That affiliation isn't that important to me.

    Oh and by the way, it is official now. I got the dreaded email today that said I had used up my DL opportunities. So I dropped the course.

    Thanks,
    clint
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Re: Re: Need a new seminary (maybe)

    I cannot answer this. Uncle Janko, Bill Grover, Steve Levicoff, or BLD might be able to. I don't see why not since both ATS and TRACS are both NA.

    God's blessings on your finding what you want and need.
     
  7. TomICAVols

    TomICAVols New Member

    I have a background in this.

    TRACS is not widely accepted in teaching circles while ATS is. It's one of those things. Their level of accreditation is equal, but ATS used to carry a tremendous amount of prestige. RA is the best route if you want to end up in the academy. But a TRACS degree would serve your purposes extremely well for church work.

    However, you'd have to do some case-by-case research in the institutions you'd like to work at.

    ATS accreditation allows for up to 30 hours (one third of an M.Div) to be completed via DL. If your school is short of this, it begs the question IMHO.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2005
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Thanks for the info, Tom. I guess the one certainity is that a TRACS graduate will qualify one to teach at a TRACS institution. This is not too shabby since there are a number of TRACS accredited and candidate schools out there.

    Good luck with your MBA degree search.

    Blessings,

    P.S. I like the Soli Deo Gloria in your sig line. I have always liked the phrases Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura and I am not even Lutheran, Unk! ;)
     
  9. lchemist

    lchemist New Member

    Aren't most schools accredited by ATS, holding RA accreditation also?
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Most ATS schools I have looked at do hold RA also.
     
  11. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Well, Clint, if you could work something out with Tartu, it would be a credential nobody would sneeze at in the theological world. This sounds stupid, but you might well be able to trade academic English lessons for academic Estonian lessons (and goose it up to "you check my diss, I'll check yours"). Best of luck to you whatever you are able and decide to pursue. Janko
     
  12. TomICAVols

    TomICAVols New Member

    I'm a big fan of the solas too Jimmy, and I'm not Lutheran either :eek:

    It's not automatic that a school would hold both ATS and RA. Some have gotten disillusioned with the ATS and found it to be an unnecessary expense and hassle. Others may say the same about RA. Some believed that ATS tended to be biased in their accredtiation policy enforcement.

    ATS seemed to lose a lot of its teeth in the 90s. Having legit accreditation (not necessarily ATS) became adequate for many ordination/endorsements and the changing face of theological education and study programs dealt a body blow to the ATS. Some experts have argued that ATS is on its way out with the emergence of other groups and the willingness for many to simply accept RA. I dont know that this is necessarily true.
     
  13. cdhale

    cdhale Member

    I appreciate your help. According to ACU, as well as numerous other ATS accredited institutions, 18 is the limit that ATS places on DL. But whether it is 18 or 30 doesn't really make much difference, as the degree calls for 54, so even if I could take 4 more courses, I would simply have the same issue then.

    I tried to find the relevant info at the ATS website, but a quick look didn't find it.

    clint
     
  14. cdhale

    cdhale Member

    It could be that the 1/3 rule is in effect for all degrees, since mine is an MA of 54, then 18 would be 1/3 of that.

    I did notice on the ATS site that for the MA, they wanted at least half of the courses taken on campus.

    clint
     
  15. Steve Levicoff

    Steve Levicoff Well-Known Member

    Step aside, the guru has arrived...

    (Yes, the title line is a joke. Lighten up, people!) :D

    cdhale, you mentioned that you are pursuing a 54-credit M.A. in Christian Ministry. Here in the States, a degree that intensive is usually called an M.A. in Religion (they are usually 60 semester hours). An Masters in Ministry (M.Min.) in the States carries less credit, usually in the range of 36 semester hours.

    Remember that ATS is a professional accreditation, not an academic one per se. It is not necessary for teaching unless you intend to teach in an ATS-accredited seminary. However, such seminaries generally require a M.Div. rather than M.A. degree - that's the nature of seminaries as opposed to colleges and universities.

    Therefore, as I understand the question, are there other options for an M.A. in Ministry? The answer is yes. Here in the States, colleges affiliated with the Christian Churches/Churches of Christ have offered, by distance, 36-credit master's in ministry degrees for several years. Two schools to check out: Johnson Bible College and Lincoln Bible College. Both are regionally accredited, both are totally by distance. Keep in mind that, as CC/CofC schools, both tend to doctrinally follow the so-called Restoration school of thinking.

    For the more traditional M.A. in Religion by distance, check out Reformed Theological Seminary in Maitland, Florida. (This is a satelite campus of the well-known Reformed Theological Seminary in Jackson, Mississippi, one of the leading schools in evangelical theology.) A few years ago, they were authorized to offer the M.A. in Religion totally by distance - sort of an ATS "test case," and they are both regionally and ATS-accredited. You can't do any better than them by reputation in both the professional and academic worlds.

    Also for the M.A., check out Southern Christian University. Also a Christian Churches/Churches of Christ school, they offer both the more extensive M.A., and even the more extensive M.Div., by distance. They are RA but not ATS, but carry university status (which can be important outside the U.S.).

    I concur with TomICAVols - TRACS accreditation has limited acceptance. (I have never been a fan of TRACS.) Yes, our government recognizes them as a legitimate accreditor, but to many RA schools in the States, TRACS is a joke. Even if you drop the ATS component, at least stick with an RA school.

    As for deciding between the Master of Ministry and the more traditional M.A.R. (a commonly used abbreviation for the Master of Arts in Religion), the key question is what you plan to do after the degree - go on for doctoral study, or teach directly, in which case the requirements of the hiring institution come into play.
     
  16. cdhale

    cdhale Member

    Thanks Steve,
    I always look forward to your posts. Usually they are helpful and when not they are at least entertaining.:D

    This would fall into the helpful category, I think. Yes the ACU MA in Christian Ministry was formerly called the MA in Religion, but changed for some reason about the time that I started my studies with them.

    I will look into the other schools you mentioned. Cost is a bit of a factor, as ACU gave me a scholarship of 2/3 tuition, meaning each course only cost about $400 total, which allowed me to take 3 per year. Some of the others may be out of my price range as my supporters have a $1500 cap on it and I can't afford to add too much to it, right now.

    I want to eventually get into teaching, but know that is easier said than done. I would like to complete my Masters by the time I return to the US (2 or 3 years) and get a decent ministerial job while I work on a PhD and maybe do some adjunct work during that time, if possible. I figure it will give me experience teaching which can't hurt.

    Pricewise, Tartu and South Africa look pretty good, not necessarily in that order, but both OK. I think Tartu would cost me just about right on my budget, while SA might be a little less, depending upon how long it takes, etc.

    However, if possible, something in the US would be preferable, so we will see.

    thanks again.

    clint
     
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Step aside, the guru has arrived...

    Steve,

    In looking for some programs myself, I checked into Johnson Bible College. Some residency is required. The school requires three visits on campus. However, a student may be able to make only two visits.

    Also, did you mean Lincoln Christian College and Seminary, rather than Lincoln Bible College? If so, I believe some residency is required there also.

    Liberty has a master's program with no residency whatsoever. Tuition is only $165 per credit hour.
     
  18. TomICAVols

    TomICAVols New Member

    Ah yes. That's the rule. My apologies. Fighting the flu :(
     
  19. cdhale

    cdhale Member

    No problem. I am also fighting some temporary health issues. :)

    I have dispatched emails to various South African institutions, the University of Tartu and a few in the US, as well. I am hoping that I will hear something back this way, but will resort to phone calls if nothing comes by next week or so. I figure that some may still be on holiday breaks or something this week. I don't mind calling the US (and definitely not Tartu, since it is like a loca call), but am not sure how much a call to South Africa might be:confused: .

    Anyway, thanks for the suggestions.

    clint
     

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