Is it actually better to go offshore???

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Lewchuk, Jun 9, 2001.

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  1. Lewchuk

    Lewchuk member

    I realise that Rich's research indicates that RA schools are ranked somewhat higher than foreign schools. However, it appears to me that the vast majority of US alternatives can not stand up to intense scrutiny.
    However, I have yet to hear any lack of respect for foreign (or to be more precise, British) alternatives.
    With some exceptions, would a US student actually be better off with a foreign degree from a respected University???
     
  2. billy

    billy New Member

    However, I have yet to hear any lack of respect for foreign (or to be more precise, British) alternatives.

    [/B][/QUOTE]

    I was previously reminded that a majority of participants at this site are North Americans so it is probable that the lack of heavy criticism on non-US DL programmes could simply be due to lack of information on negative public perception on non-US DL programmes from other parts of the world.

    This reminded me of an article from the Singapore press about 2 years back. A young female graduate with 1st Class honours from UOL BSc (Econ)(external) (there could be not more than 20 a year)could not find a position with leading companies in Singapore after a 6 months search and after submitting hundreds of resumes. The few graduate entry positions, she was offered a job was at s lower starting pay compared to peers which complete their studies at a university internally. This is legal in Singapore.

    Billy


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  3. drwetsch

    drwetsch New Member

    A U.S. student is much better off earning a U.S credential because they are more than likely to be living and working in the U.S. A foreign credential can be acceptable but I would believe that in most situations a U.S. degree would be better. In addition, there are over 3,000 RA schools of higher ed in the U.S. and a lot of programs to choose from.

    I am therefore unclear by your statement,
    "However, it appears to me that the vast majority of US alternatives can not stand up to intense scrutiny." There needs to be some data presented here. There are a lot of U.S. programs and by saying the "vast majority" is a disservice and a huge assumption without merit.

    There is a lot to sort out by any foreign education establishment on U.S. degrees. For instance there is RA, national, and professional accreditation to worry about. There are DL programs by exam, correspondence, online, satellite, etc.

    Would a foreign country question the Hardvard DL masters or the Duke shop set up in Frankfurt? Compare the name of the degree earned to that of a City University masters in a foreign country. I think your question comes down to branding, degree pedigree, and a potential bias against Amerucan DL programs.

    Overall, I often see a double standard applied to DL and it has become a personal pet-peeve of mine. That is, if I earn a degree via DL from a traditional school it is considered better than a DL degree from a DL school. I think that the Registrar survey that was done supports this statement. Essentially traditional is perceived as better despite any facts to the contrary.

    I also think that there is a universal perception of the DL stigma and it persists to a great degree in the DL community. As the many threads on this board and A.E.D. have attested, we find that DL learners do not want or like:

    1.) The word "external" or something similar on diplomas

    2.) non-traditional degree names (such as Bachelor of General Studies)

    3.) the word "correspondence" associated with their degree program.

    4.) transcripts indicating external study

    5.) A DL school with an odd sounding name

    All of these dislikes point to the fact that DL degree holders prefer to have their degree looked upon the same as a traditional degree.

    Consequently, if you believe that your assumption on a foreign credential being better than the "vast majority of U.S. alternatives" I would like to know what that perception is based on. Such as -- Number of countries who would not accept an American DL credential? Type of program being offered? The population of countries seeking degree credentials? Traditional views against DL? American DL is inferior to foreign DL? Foreign countries do not like U.S. accreditation? Foreign countries do not understand the American education system? Foreign countries will only accept name brand U.S. schools? The competition posed by American schools on foreign education systems? ... and so on...

    A U.S. is much better off earning a U.S credential because they are more than like to be living and working in the U.S.

    John
     
  4. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I think that an unfounded and overbroad statement like that is of little value, except as an expression of the nationalism that motivated it.

    I'll ignore the suggestion that American universities aren't respected.

    Choice of a school is a very individual decision. People are interested in different majors, different specialties, different degree levels, different residency requiremnts, different teaching methods, different delivery formats, different assessment methods, different credit transfer policies and much more.

    A school that fits one student may have little to offer the next student.

    Somebody might find his or her optimum program in the US, UK or anywhere. I see no more reason to avoid American schools than to limit my attention to them.

    I do think that it might often be a bit more user-friendly to study with an institution in one's own country. Here in the US employers are often better acquainted with American schools. American schools are often more flexible about accepting transfer credit, particularly when that credit is American and denominated in "semester units". Travel requirements for short residency programs are a lot less intimidating when you don't have to travel halfway around the world to a strange country.

    Similarly, the Open University might look a lot better to a British student who OU will actually admit, who graduated from a British secondary school, who can take advantage of the OU regional centers in the UK and so on.

    And UNISA's bureaucracy might actually be comprehensible to a South African. Certainly more local support for UNISA students is available in that country.
     
  5. barryfoster

    barryfoster New Member

    I agree with John. While I can't speak for other countries, the US has a wide spectrum of excellent RA options available. (I'm guessing that Lewchuk is asking about non-RA alternatives in the US compared to out-country options - DETC, state-approved, etc.?)

    In my opinion: For the US student, RA is the way to go. If I want to learn but can't get RA to work for me, I'd get some books and learn. If I want a degree that is going to serve reliablity for the rest of my life, it has to be regionally accredited. (Again, this is soley a US perspective.)

    From what I read on this board, the biggest complaint about RA tends to be cost. Unfortunately, education is expensive and you get what you pay (and work) for. Having observed adult education for some years, I understand the cost drivers for offering quality education - esp. at the graduate level.

    Having been involved in DE for longer than I like to think about, today's student has an unbelievable array of options. In the middle '80s and early '90s, this was not the case. Educational opportunities designed for mid-career adults has exploded. RA schools have done a wonderful job of creating many, many excellent opportunities. (Not limited to the few consistently mentioned on this board.)

    I hope that folks who read this board looking for actual educational options (compared to those who follow the topic more as a hobby) understand that - at best - postings here might be considered consumer-centric trends. Do your homework. The internet is your friend - esp. compared to the 'old days' when one had to scour, read, send away for catalogs, etc. Now most everything you need is on-line.

    It's been interesting to watch the conversational trends in AED (and now on this board) over the years, often resulting in a certain school or option being identified as 'the way'. Sometimes I get the sense that there is some search for an educational loop hole. All the 'short cuts' - those which move away from RA - have been exposed as faulty. (Again, soley a US perspective.)

    Recent conversations about GAAP illustrate this point. For example, GAAP is called a 'concept' that remains in flux, has no real agreement among the educational and practicing gatekeepers (data based on mere 'opinions' of registrars, HR personnel, etc), and even no agreement in regards to criteria. With the accounting model of Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (after which I am assuming GAAP is modeled), this is not the case. Last year, GAAP was all 'the rage'.

    As I wrote a year or two ago in AED, GAAP remains a sliperly slope - at least until it codifies into something that is clear, precise and reliable - and is consistently used by gatekeepers. It is nice to see some work (conversation?) being done world-wide, but it is by no means mature - yet.

    The RA option remains constant - top of the heap for US students. Again, this is merely my opinion.

    Barry Foster
     
  6. Lewchuk

    Lewchuk member

    Since this is a distance learning board I was referring to US distance learning options... not traditional RA schools. Either through AED, this group or personal contacts I have heard negative sentiment from respected individuals concerning the following schools:
    Thomas Edison State College


     
  7. Lewchuk

    Lewchuk member

    Since this is a distance learning board I was referring to US distance learning options... not traditional RA schools. Either through AED, this group or personal contacts I have heard negative sentiment from respected individuals/sources concerning the following schools:
    Thomas Edison State College
    Phoenix
    Golden Gate
    UMUC
    Regents (or whatever the new name is)
    Walden
    Nova Southeastern
    Sarasota
    Jones International
    Capella
    Granted, this is not scientific and I am referring to acceptance at the margin, not the average, but my experience indicates that the general reputation of a large number of US DL options is very poor.
    Alternatively, I have never heard someone express negative sentiment about British options (and yes, I have heard comments regarding several of the British schools).

     
  8. Ike

    Ike New Member

    Why don't you do a GOOLE search to see how many people that have successfully used the degrees they earned from these institutions?
    You may do a search with quatation marks as follows:

    "Nova Ph.D.", "Nova DBA" or "Nova Ed.D"


    Ike
     
  9. Ike

    Ike New Member

    I meant GOOGLE search using http://www.google.com
     
  10. Lewchuk

    Lewchuk member

    The quality of US education is a topic for another day, I was more referring to DL opportunities.

    I have queried a number of US DL programs over the years and most appear to suffer a great lack of respect at the margin (i.e. Walden, Capella, Phoenix, TESC, Regents, UMUC, Golden Gate, Nova Southeastern, Sarasota). Conversely, I have queried a number of British programs and they appear to stand up very well.
    Of course the British programs are generally different than US programs... the British are generally more traditional programs offered from old, traditional Universities whereas the US programs are often "non-traditional" universities. That being said, my point is I question if, until the traditional US schools accept the British model (something which I think will eventually occure) is one better off with a foreign degree which appears to have greater acceptance at the margin.





     
  11. Lewchuk

    Lewchuk member

    In the real world RA doesn't seem to mean much in the sense that it is pretty much expected that your degree is accredited. A more pertinent issue is the perception of the quality of the school you went to and most of the US DL schools seem to fail miserably in this regard.
    I am not so sure that a RA school is always better than a foreign alternative (i.e. it depends on the quality of the RA school, and currently the US RA DL pickings are pretty slim).


     
  12. barryfoster

    barryfoster New Member

    First, I think you stated the purpose of RA - quality control, portability and acceptability.

    I'd be curious for some more detail on why you feel US DL fails. Not trying to be argumentative, but specifically - how do US DL (I'm thinking RA) schools fail so miserablty?


    I am not so sure that a RA school is always better than a foreign alternative (i.e. it depends on the quality of the RA school, and currently the US RA DL pickings are pretty slim).
    [/QUOTE]

    Again, I guess I'm curious why you feel the US RA DL pickings are slim???? There are so many programs - tons of which never get any press on this board. From your perspective, what criteria are you using to view this plethora of options as being slim?

    Thanks! (Truly, I'm curious.)
    Barry Foster
     
  13. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    There are many hundreds of American distance education programs. Lewchuk's list of ones that he doesn't like is representative not of American DL as a whole, but of those programs that are often discussed here. And the reason that they are discussed is that they are unusual or because they raise issues.

    Some of the schools on his list are there because they are world leaders. TESC, Excelsior/Regent's, along with COSC and (potentially) WGU are far more flexible in assessing prior learning than anything one can find in the UK or Canada. That will inevitably make them controversial. But the concept is sound and probably represents the future of higher education in the 21'st century. Lifelong learning will become the norm, delivered by a whole variety of providers. There will have to be institutions that can gather it all in one place and assess it. Wait and see: the UK and Canada will be copying this in ten or fifteen years.

    Phoenix gets a lot of flack because of its profit motive. It is seen by some as a huge, mass-market McUniversity. But to be fair, Heriot-Watt's MBA program is awfully similar in that regard. It is probably the world's largest MBA program, and represents almost pure profit for H-W as it takes very little money to operate. (Send the materials, offer the exams. No classrooms to maintain or teachers to pay.) Phoenix has been criticized for pressuring faculty to lower class grading standards, but it has faculty and classes.

    This quality/profit nexus is a concern regarding American proprietary education such as Phoenix or Jones International. But it is not unique to the US. Similar concerns have been raised about the educational "franchises" that the British shower on Asia. On this group we have seen charges that Australian schools have lowered standards to retain fee-paying foreign students. So while the potential for abuse is there, it is by no means unique to the United States.

    Nova Southeastern is a traditional university with an unusual array of DL programs. It is discussed here a lot in the context of whether or not holders of distance doctorates can land tenure-track teaching positions. But that is not a Nova-specific issue, it is a generic-DL issue. UNISA has also been used as an example, as could the British or Australian universities. In fact there have been recent discussions of Charles Sturt and Southern Queensland that sounded a lot like the discussions of Nova.

    All in all, I totally fail to see how anyone can conclude that American distance education doesn't hold up to scrutiny. It has its strengths and its weaknesses. Its tremendous diversity of education providers is probably a strength, as is its flexibility in course delivery and credit transfer. These are all areas where the world will almost certainly follow the American lead. America's reluctance to get into distance doctorates is probably a weakness. Perhaps the British or Australians will show some leadership there. (But they will have to decide if their "research" doctorates really are DL doctorates before they can do that.) It could be better, sure. But American DL is not the dark pit that Lewchuk would like it to be, nor is education outside the United States quite as wonderful as he imagines.
     
  14. Tom Head

    Tom Head New Member

    I think it's worth noting that this is not a list of programs Lewchuk doesn't like, necessarily; this is a list of programs that Lewchuk has reason to believe some other people don't like. I'll take him at his word, though I've never really worried about that sort of thing.

    For my part, I've earned U.S. RA B.A. and M.A. degrees, and I'm proud of them; and I'll probably earn a non-U.S. Ph.D. and be proud of it, too. It amazes me to no end that if you offer people the option of having their cake and eating it too, they'll actually spend time arguing about who's better for having it or eating it. We're in heaven, folks (panentheistically speaking). We've got distance learning programs coming out of our ears. Thirty years ago, people would have given their right arms (or at least a pinky) to have the options we're arguing about. I say we make personal decisions, run with them, and live with the consequences. That's the way to do anything, so far as I'm concerned, and there's no better or worse about it.


    Peace,

    ------------------
    Tom Head
    www.tomhead.net
     
  15. Lewchuk

    Lewchuk member

    Well, so far I have looked into TESC, Regents, Pheonix, Nova, Capella, Walden, UMUC, Golden Gate and a few others. True, this is not the entire US DL universe but is a pretty big sample and were the schools which offered courses I was/am interested in.
    TESC - scorned by some accomplished academics I had conversations with
    Regents - see above
    Phoenix - scorned by professors at small RA school where I was seeking adjunct status
    Walden - see above
    Capella - see above
    Nova - see above, and was rejected for funding by multinational company I worked for.
    UMUC - see UMUC thread, Germans accept UMCollege Park but not UMUC
    Golden Gate - reputable business associate said "it is not a diploma mill, but..."

    Obviously this is a anecdotal and these schools serve a purpose (I have used TESC) but the vast majority of US DL schools I have inquired about seem to lack respect at the margin.

    Conversely, I have yet to hear knowledgable complaints regarding British alternatives (quite the opposite in a few cases).




     
  16. Alex

    Alex New Member

    The most recent issue of Chronicle of Higher Education posted on line stated that a faculty member was denied tenure because the committee was unimpressed with her Nova doctorate earned via DL.

    http://chronicle.com/free/v47/i39/39a00901.htm

    Of course, an internet search will probably show that many people with Nova degrees nonetheless do have faculty positions with tenure.

    Alex
     
  17. drwetsch

    drwetsch New Member


    From the article it looks like the Nova grad came out on top in the long run. A perfect example of some of the problems traditionalists have with DL education. Once in awhile you read in the Chroncle articles by those who think DL is bringing down education. I think the traditionalist response against DL education is from too much time spent in the Ivory Tower.

    John
     
  18. drwetsch

    drwetsch New Member

    Tom,

    You make a good point and DL is better represented now than it ever has been. It almost seems to be leading towards a globalization of education. Overall, doing great but it still needs to get over that last hurdle where it can be fully mainstream. The status of DL education is a mindset but the paradigm change made to education is still ongoing.

    John
     
  19. Lewchuk

    Lewchuk member

    Exactly. Also, to repeat, this is not a critism of US RA degrees but of the respect a number of US RA DL degrees get.

    Again, to repeat, I am not talking about "average acceptance" but acceptance at the margin... at the higher levels of academia, business, etc.

     
  20. Lewchuk

    Lewchuk member

    Exactly my point, many of these programs lack respect at the margin in a way the British programs do not.


     

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