more about Berne Univ.

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by RockyLands, Jun 5, 2001.

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  1. RockyLands

    RockyLands New Member

  2. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    There's nothing really surprising here.

    The Veteran's Administration is simply deferring to the US Department of Education's student aid eligibility list:

    That's the weakness of 'GAAP' being illustrated once again. The USDoE defers to local education authorities overseas, and those are of widely varying credibility.

    And the man in Delaware is a retired gentleman from the World War II generation who is being awarded for a lifetime of achievement that had nothing to do with Berne. Apparently he went back to school and got a doctorate after he retired, probably for his own satisfaction. That's OK with me, though I would have hoped that he would have picked a more credible program. But he doesn't seem to be trying to mislead anyone with the degree, and his computers to the schools program seems like a valuable effort.

    Personally, I think that providing advanced education for intellectually active senior citizens that conventional doctoral programs wouldn't touch is a useful niche for the state-approved level schools. (And I include Berne in that category.)
     
  3. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    This has nothing to do with GAAP. As John points out, GAAP is a concept with a set of criteria, nothing more. While his research shows that admissions officials largely follow these criteria (without being asked specifically about GAAP, BTW), there is not an established, nation-wide policy to do so.

    The whole meaning of the first word--"Generally"--illustrates this point. GAAP describes what is already going on; it doesn't dictate a set of criteria a school should or will follow. If schools didn't already use the International Handbook of Universities in great numbers to make their admissions decisions on foreign candidates then it wouldn't be a GAAP criterion. But they do and it is.

    Some admissions officials might look for affiliation with UWI as an indicator of a Caribbean school's acceptability. Others might find Berne in the IHU and accept it. Even others might turn to a foreign credential evaluation service for some insight. And others might reject it outright. That doesn't invalidate the concept of GAAP--it fits within it.

    Take MIGS/CEU for example. It might turn out that U.S. schools reject CEU degrees earned through MIGS, despite the fact that the CEU is listed in both the IHU and the PIER World Education Series. This would be despite the general acceptability in the U.S. of degrees from Mexican universities. Could it happen? Yes. But that wouldn't invalidate GAAP; it would simply point out what should be obvious: each case is different and this is all more complex than we tend to acknowledge around here.

    Rich Douglas
     
  4. drwetsch

    drwetsch New Member

    What this thread may be saying with some of the recognition given to a quasi-credible degree is that some people will be able to "squeak by" with the degree.

    I may be off base but I would typically put any Berne recognition near the level of a U.S. state approved degree.

    John
     
  5. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    I would agree with John Wetsch that "I may be off base but I would typically put any Berne recognition near the level of a U.S. state approved degree."

    In my fairly extensive survey of registrars, about seven percent said they would regularly or probably accept accreditation from a Caribbean nation.

    As with any degree whatsoever, a person considering a Berne degree should do his/her best to find out, before spending any money, whether it will meet his/her current and predictable future needs.
     
  6. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I'm not trying to start a war. My point is only that the VA eligibility list and the USDoE financial aid list are using a 'GAAP'-like criterion that defers to foreign nations' local approvals. In some countries, those may be no more reliable than California BPPVE approval.

    I would consider the CA-approved Western Institute for Social Research in Berkeley to be easily the academic equal of Berne. However most university admissions officers are said to reject schools like it, and it doesn't qualify for student loans or VA benefits.

    But if it relocated to St. Kitts, it could leap clear over DETC into the International Handbook of Universities. Suddenly it would be considered RA-equivalent, at least by those who 'went by the book'. But its academic quality wouldn't have changed at all.

    Granted. I'm just pointing out that this generally accepted practice is subject to abuse, and the Berne case is the poster-child that illustrates that.

    Certainly evaluators can introduce additional criteria in cases where problems are suspected. But then the 'GAAP' criterion is no longer really a criterion. You have 'GAAP-plus'. You can no longer just look up a school that you know nothing about and trust it if it is in the book(s).

    That doesn't mean that 'GAAP' is worthless. It works great for countries with robust higher education oversight mechanisms. So for many nations you can trust it, but for some countries in some situations you can't. Identifying the suspect countries, locating the exploitable weaknesses in their systems, and proposing additional criteria to plug them will be awfully hard though. Imagine the controversies as soon as you get down to cases.

    Frankly I'm not sure what the answer is. But I think that the DL community needs to start discussing the problem.
     
  7. Tom Head

    Tom Head New Member

    I think it's important to remember that GAAP is a theory, not a formal standard. And like all good theories, it's descriptive rather than prescriptive.

    If you want to say that John Bear's GAAP has "failed" by this morning's standards, you may very well be right, but it wasn't written this morning. At the time of its publication, it was the most reasonable and accurate guess anybody had made. And it's still much closer to accurate than any other published description of international standards has been so far, so I wouldn't knock it.


    Peace,

    ------------------
    Tom Head
    www.tomhead.net
     
  8. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I agree with everything you said. However, you tend to talk about the way things should be. Nothing wrong with that. I tend to talk about the way things are. As you and I can agree, the way things should be is a far cry from the way they are. The possibility of an IHU end-around seems great, which will only serve to injure the credibility of its listings. Especially with those countries on "the fringe."

    In Bear's recent survey, listing in the IHU was the least liked means of determining the acceptability of a foreign degree. Listing in NOOSR, PIER, the Commonwealth Universities Yearbook, and evaluation by a foreign credentials evaluating agency were all higher. But not by all that much.

    No wars detected here. In fact, we tend to agree a lot. I just emphasize how it is, warts and all. You seem to stress how it needs to improve. I don't disagree with a thing you say, though. [​IMG]

    Rich Douglas
     
  9. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Your zeal to defend Dr. Bear is admirable, but it's a bit misplaced. Dr. Bear isn't under attack. In fact, I think that he basically agrees with me.

    I'm not criticizing Dr. Bear for using the GAAP criterion in his book. If the Veteran's Administration, the Department of Education, the AACRAO, and most university admissions offices use some version of GAAP (whatever they call it), he's in pretty good company. If it is the most practical criterion currently in existence and if nobody really knows of anything better, what's to criticize?

    I don't understand that. If it fails in some cases and is subject to abuse, why not point that out?

    This is a subject that is going to be of increasing importance as distance education becomes ever more international. It is also a subject of great intrinsic inerest, at least to me.
    It isn't a situation where a criticism of GAAP is an attack on Dr. Bear. Rather, it is a situation where all of us on this group can help advance the state of the art. As I see it, this is a cutting edge issue in international distance education, if anyone cares to grapple with it.
     
  10. Tom Head

    Tom Head New Member

    Agreed.

    To be perfectly honest, I didn't even consciously direct my message towards you -- but I certainly see why it looked as though I did. What was intended as a general caution came across as a targeted rebuke. What can I say, except that this is why I should probably stick to three or fewer cups of coffee in the morning.


    Peace,

    ------------------
    Tom Head
    www.tomhead.net
     
  11. Caballero Lacaye

    Caballero Lacaye New Member


    Try decaff, Br. Tom! That way, you can drink much more than three cups of coffee. Alternatively, you can drink regular coffee for your first cup and then switch to decaff for your second cup and so forth.

    Best,


    Karlos Alberto Lacaye, who is a big fan of drinking decaffeinated iced coffee at Dunkin' Doughnuts any time of the day or night.
     
  12. bing

    bing New Member

    And they want more than $12K for their doctorate. Hmm. I would say at that price Union and Touro are better deals, given their flexibility and RA status. They cost a few thousand more but you will get a LOT more mileage from them.

    Bing
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Agreed. If you choose NCU you are paying about the same and having a seemingly pretty good chance of an RA degree. Ahhh but you miss the warm beaches and Kittsian ambiance.

    North

     
  14. Tom Head

    Tom Head New Member

    Not a bad idea, Br. Caballero. I've actually got an espresso machine, and I think I have some decaf grounds around here -- I wonder if the two would cooperate...? Never tried it, but it would be an interesting thing to see a triple espresso with half the caffeine of Pepsi.

    Peace,

    ------------------
    Tom Head
    www.tomhead.net
     
  15. bing

    bing New Member

  16. bing

    bing New Member

    For your sake, I hope they do get RA. However, I think one of two things will happen. Either NCU becomes a Touro(which they won't because they don't have an RA Toruo College behind them) or else they make some major changes in their doctorate programs. The latter would be in opposition of why people are doing programs with them now.

    Bing

     
  17. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    This may have to do with the nonresidential nature of the program (although correspondence schools' courses have been approved). Or perhaps it is because of the way the courses are structured. Did you ask NCU why?

    Rich Douglas
     
  18. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member


    Union, Walden, Capella, Fielding, and Sarasota all advanced from candidacy to accreditation without changing their programs. Some have made improvements since their accreditation. Candidacy essentially means "We like what we see, but we want to see it for awhile more before giving our final blessing." This is why candidacy is often--but certainly not always--considered comparable to being accredited. And while it has been pointed out that not all schools advance to accreditation, there haven't been any nontraditional, DL schools with candidacy denied accreditation since....1985? I can't think of one since The International Graduate School.

    Rich Douglas
     
  19. bing

    bing New Member

    I did ask them, and they said that the reason was due to the non-RA status of NCU. They said that the VA will not approve schools who are not RA. This seems wrong as Berne is not RA.

    Bing

     
  20. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Of course, Berne is technically a "foreign" school, and they may have separate provisions for such schools. But I'm surprised that there isn't also a procedure for NCU to follow, especially after they receive candidacy. (Which still hasn't been announced publicly.)

    Rich Douglas
     

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