acceptability of a tracs Mdiv

Dear list members I have been struggling for several months with respect to the choice of an Mdiv program and have been most grateful for board members input.Although I tend towards the sacramental/liturgical in worship and theology and would prefer ats accreditation I just cannot manage the residency requirements. I have found a number of evangelical oriented programs with regional or in the case of beacon college tracs accreditation. I was wondering what the general acceptability in the church world has been with respect to tracs accredited programs.

many thanks as always
John

 

I think that TRACS accreditation is voluble in the Churches world.
TRACKS is recognized accreditor.

In general such a degree may not be considered highly academic.
For example a degree form Denver seminary is RA and other accreditations.

TRACS accredited degree in my opinion good choice for pastors.

If one wishes to teach religion in Academic establishment then
a degree from RA seminary will be more beneficial.

 

John,

As far as TRACS acceptability in the church world, I would have to ask, which church world? There is a world (ha ha) of difference between liberal and conservative Baptist denominations, or between Baptists and Anglicans. If you are seeking ordination, I suggest that you contact your denomination and find out their exact requirements.

There are also significant differences between schools. There are some TRACS schools that are excellent. Northwest Baptist Seminary in Tacoma (founded in 1927 as L.A. Baptist Theological Seminary) has a very rigorous reputation, particularly in the area of languages. Yet TRACS also accredits some schools that are not so strong. Not all TRACS schools are created equal… but then that is true of regionally accredited or ATS accredited schools as well.

I think accreditation is fine, and is one way of demonstrating that a school is not a scam. Unfortunately, people who don’t know individual schools in a particular field tend to look only at accreditation, which artificially levels the field. You need to independently evaluate each school in depth, because there are qualitative differences between seminaries that share the exact same accreditation. These differences may be subjective to some degree, but it would be foolish to deny that these differences exist. I think it would be a mistake, therefore, to lump all schools accredited by an accrediting body together, as in “TRACS schools” or “ATS schools”.

If I recall correctly, you were interested in a Lutheran or Anglican seminary. I don’t know of any that do distance learning, but have you considered a school that is not denominationally affiliated? Columbia Biblical Seminary is a non-denominational school that offers distance learning programs, and they are SACS/ATS accredited. I think you only have to visit campus five times during the M.Div. program. Reformed Theological Seminary (SACS/ATS) also offers an M.A. by distance learning. Southern Evangelical Seminary (TRACS) offers an M.Div. by distance learning, with four modular campus classes.

 

dave , thanks for the recomendations.Your memory is excellent. I was looking in the world of the more liturgical/sacramental churches.unfortunately the majority have rather strict residency requirements.There were one or two denominational seminaries--unfortunately with no more than state exemptions. I agree there is a wide continumn within a specific accrediting body. I however am largely unfamiliar with tracs and am attempting to ascertain in general how legitimate tracs is as a recognized accrediting body.

thanks
John

 

re tracs Mdiv

Hi,

The theological portion of my education was completed at a baccalaureate level with an unaccredited (at that time) Bachelor of Theology at a Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada College followed by the Canadian equivalent of RA, a Bachelor of Arts in Religion at a North American Baptist College. My graduate degree was ATS/RA, an M.Div at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary at Wake Forest, NC. I also took a few courses at a Lutheran Seminary and at a Catholic Seminary.

Where did I end up pastoring? Lutheran churches similar to the one I grew up in that were associated with my network of fellowship.

What do you intend to do? If you plan to serve as a pastor, which denomination? Some denominations run unaccredited seminaries but place far greater faith in them than accredited, dually accredited or Ivy League schools.

You did mention your liturgical leanings and for that reason I'd suggest Trinity Episcopal Seminary. Check out www.tesm.edu
They are ATS accredited!

 

dear eback thanks for the advice-most helpful. I was suprised to read that you were pastoring in a Lutheran church without Lutheran seminary, some in the know have told me there is a back door to everything.
with respect to your question my intrest eventually would be to pastor in an elca or what might be left of or splintered from ecusa. I definitely require accredited as I am intrested in teaching at the seminary level.
thanks
John

 

If this is your objective--to teach at an RA/ATS seminary--then you would be best served to pursue an RA/ATS MDiv.

 

John,

As far as using a TRACS M.Div. to teach at a seminary, I’d caution you on several points. First, most schools are looking for applicants with doctoral degrees, not M.Div.’s. Second, they frequently specify regionally accredited or even RA/ATS accredited doctorates. For that reason, I suggest you not seek a terminal degree from a TRACS institution if teaching is really your goal. However, some people have obtained TRACS-accredited or even rigorous non-accredited M.Div.’s and gone on to highly competitive RA/ATS doctoral programs.

 

Faith Evangelical Seminary in Tacoma, Washington is fully TRACS accredited; and is a spin-off from the old American Lutheran Church (ALC) back in the '60s. It's roots are decidedly Swedish Lutheran, though it now seems to have at least partially shaken free of that particular impediment (and I get to call it that 'cause I'm an old LCA -- now ELCA -- Lutheran whose lifelong church of youth and record is a very old Midwestern Swedish Lutheran congregation; a church so Swedish that its Council voted to name various rooms in its new building in 1961 after some of its original founders, like, for example, the "Nordstrom Room," and the "Dahlberg Room," etc. ).

Faith Seminary's a bit too theologically conservative for my taste (and if you're ELCA and/or ECUSA, I'll bet it would be for you, too), but by golly it bears the "Lutheran" moniker, sure enough; it's TRACS accredited; it offers most or all of its MDiv program via various forms of distance learning; and it seems affordable. As either an ELCA or ELCA-interested potential MDiv candidate, it seems to me, brensiobhan, that if you can get past the whole inerrancy thing -- and all the other fairly theoloically-conservative (at least as compared with the ELCA) stuff -- then Faith Seminary might (and I stress the word "might") just do it for you... that is, if TRACS accreditation is enough (which, because you've said you want to teach at the seminary level, might not be).

Those two things (i.e., "ELCA or what might be left of or splintered from ECUSA") will, I believe, actually be two not-insignificantly different things. You mentioned Lutheran and ELCA first, so I take it that that's what you are. If so, I'd stick with that. Don't believe for a second that what falls out of the ECUSA shakeup will necessarily be particularly welcoming to ELCA sensibilities... notwithstanding the whole "Called to Common Mission" thing.

The ELCA's "back door," so to speak, is its TEEM program. From the ELCA's Division for Ministry web pages:

• "Theological Education for Emerging Ministries (TEEM) is a process by which the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America approves for the roster of ordained ministers those persons 'who by reason of age and prior experience' (Constitution 7.31.14) are qualified to participate in an alternative program of preparation for ordination. It is for exceptional persons who are identified for ministry in a specific context and complete theological education (non-M.Div. degree) and candidacy requirements."

It's too bad, brensiobhan, that you can't just up and go to Seminary the normal way because if I were of a mind to do so myself, this is the MDiv program that I'd just about kill to get into. It's my personal favorite of all ELCA-approved MDiv and/or TEEM programs.

As for your TRACS legitimacy question: Though the TEEM candidacy process is clearly spelled-out, I know the ELCA -- or at least certain parts of, and synods within, it -- and in at least some ELCA synods, it's difficult to imagine that if a mature candidate were to present with:

• an MDiv from Faith Seminary; and,
  
• a CPE credit or two; and,
  
• the volunatary, extra-curricular completion of the ELCA's AIM Program; as well as having devoured nearly all of the other "courses" in the ELCA's SELECT Program (not because any of it is better or more comprehensive than anything already learned during the acquisition of one's MDiv but, rather, because one could point to and cite it as probably-adequate ELCA-specific indoctrination); and,
  
• a self-arranged (or arranged as part of the Faith Seminary MDiv) practicum of some kind in an ELCA congregation somewhere; and, finally,
  
• a firm idea and/or, better yet, a fully-developed and written-down plan for a specific kind of much-needed ministry that is in keeping with and advances ELCA objectives,

s/he would not be attractive as an ordained and rostered ELCA pastoral candidate.

But that's just my opinion.

If you really must have regional and/or ATS accreditation (and if you want to teach at the seminary level, you probably do so that you can get into a regionally-accredited doctoral program); and if "darned-close-to-Lutheran-but-not-quite" is okay, then I believe our friend Brad Boydston -- a pastor and respected member around here -- would counsel you to seriously consider Northpark Theological Seminary's SemConnect Program through which, if I'm not mistaken, one can come about as close to getting a quality, accredited D/L MDiv with just about as little residency as can be reasonably gotten away with. Brad could speak better to this.

Northpark University (of which the seminary is a part) is regionally accredited; and the seminary itself is ATS accredited. I'm not sure if that means that one's MDiv therefrom would be both regionally and ATS accredited... but, again, Brad can, I'm sure, speak to that. Northpark's seminary is affiliated with, and trains pastors for, the Evangelical Covenant Church which, if one has an ELCA perspective on things like I do, could easily be described, doctrinally, as very much like Lutheranism, generally... but with the "evangelical" part somewhat on steroids. Brad might disagree, but that's sort of my take on that particular denomination. And I'm not saying that I don't like that or that that's a bad thing; it's just that ELCA Lutherans -- especially the old Swedes -- tend to be a bit more... well... passive (some would argue "passive-aggressive," but... well... that's a rant for another day) in their "evangelism." Old ALC and LCA Lutherans tend to define "evangelism" as "embracing those who embrace Christ" which, as nice as that sounds, usually actually means something along the lines of, "if you believe, then you're okay with us... now sit down and shut up... the property committee meeting's about to start."

The only other TRACS-accredited MDiv program that sort of caught my eye on account of having either little or no residency requirement is the one from the decidedly even more theologically conservative Beacon University. If you're of the ELCA/ECUSA mentality, however (as it seems you are), I fear that getting through a program like that would be a bit like being forced to watch The Christian Broadcasting Network more or less 24-hours a day for a prolonged period so that you almost need to be deprogrammed by the time you get your diploma. Okay, maybe I'm exaggerating... okay, fine... I'm definitely exaggerating...

...but not alot.

 

If it is one's intent to teach ,as opposed to pastoring, then I suggest that one should consider the MA not the MDiv since:

1) as I recall some RA and/or ATS schools allow the MA to be done entirely by distance.

2) the MA will often get one into a doc program (but NOT in some US Evangelical RA schools as Dallas , Masters, or Baptist in PA.)

3) the MA is from a 1/3 to a 2/3 shorter program than is the MDiv

4) The MA may allow specialization as in NT, OT, or Theology which better serves to prepare one for the doc work.

5) MA coursework may be transferable to a higher masters as the MDiv or ThM

6) then, if one does #5, one has lots of degrees as MA, MDiv, ThM and can happily flaunt them here at degreeinfo



IMO TRACS is a good accreditor but not as recognized as RA/ATS. Get your denomination's view , and the view of some RA seminaries, and the view of some school in which you'd like to teach. Get on seminary websites and view the credentials of their faculties.

As Dave said, generally an RA or an equivalent Ph.D. or ThD is required for a professorship. I think NO TRACS school is offering these docs.

Competition for salaried positions in accredited schools is great and, therefore, requirements for applicants are high. . EG,China, which accepts volunteer , ie UNPAID, profs ,through the auspices of International Institute for Christian Studies, requires a ThD or PhD (although some other countries accept ThMMers). That should suggest the norm in US schools.

Of course an applicant's experience, publishing record, creed, affiliations, and connections also are important to schools.

 

Sage wisdom, brensiobhan -- as usual, from Bill Grover.

Actually, after my last posting, I was thinking about that very thing... and wondering if the SATS MTh might be enough to get brensiobhan into an RA (or maybe even ATS) PhD or ThD program. Your thoughts, Bill?

As long as I have the floor again for a sec, and in and keeping with and/or along the lines of, Bill's thesis of avoiding the MDiv and getting some sort of Masters that will be acceptable to an RA and/or ATS doctoral program, Indiana Weslyan University (which is regionally accredited) has a very interesting -- and I believe completely D/L -- Master of Arts in Ministry degree. It's only 36 hours (as opposed to a typical MDiv's 90 to 120 hours); and since it's fairly rigorous and regionally-accredited, may well be acceptable as requisite to most any RA PhD or even ThD program.

The Methodists, of course, tend to be a bit more flexible about what kind of pastor training they'll accept in their ordained and rostered ministers, hence the aforementioned Master of Arts in Ministry is acceptable to at least some flavors of Methodist in lieu of an MDiv -- even in the United Methodist Church, in some parts of the U.S. -- and may well also satisfy (but I doubt it) most or all of the educational requirements of the ELCA's aforementioned TEEM program so that you just might (and, again, I stress the word "might") be able to become ordained in the ELCA with it. And I don't know about you, brensiobhan, but as an ELCA Lutheran I, personally, would be somewhat more comfortable with Weslyan/Methodist sensibilities than with those espoused at a place like, for example, my aforementioned (in my previous post) Beacon University...

...but that's just me.

 

Greg's suggestion of a good foreign program is worthwhile, provided again that your denomination approves. I think you will find www.bakersguide.com a useful resource in that regard. Bill G. has completed his research doctoral work through a South African state university listed there.

The M.A. in Ministry, sometimes called the M.Min., does not usually lead to doctoral work. It is usually considered a portion of the M.Div., much like the M.A.R. or M.T.S.


Dave

 

Agreed... and strongly, too.

And it's "Gregg," by the way: Three G's, not in a row.

But hairs I splitteth.

Hence, at least in part, why I asked his opinion on the SATS MTh (and while I was typing this, he answered).

Ummm.... well... in the first place, Indiana Weslyan's "Master of Arts in Ministry" is not an "MMin." I suppose it's an "M.A.Min" or something like that... but my point is that it's a "master of arts" degree, generally -- and, oh-by-the-way, it just happens to be in "ministry." That's decidely differerent, purely-academically speaking, from a "Master(s) of(in) Ministry" credential. The problem is, in this particular case, it's not a thesis-based Master of Arts degree which, as Bill correctly points out (but as I sweartogod I was going to write even if he had not posted it while I was writing this), might not feed the bulldog when/if one attempts to use it as requisite to a PhD.

Oooh. Ouch. I suspect you wouldn't want anyone from Indiana Weslyan -- at least not any o' them ol' Indiana farm boys who're bigger-'n-y'all -- to hear you say something like that!

Just a hunch.

 

gentlemen, many , many thanks for your exceptionally sage advice.Frankly I could not have recvd such wisdom from a professional career counsellor.The route which I have tried up until now is to contact the various Archbishops offices of -until now Anglican/episcopal diocesses.I certainly did not recv the type of response that I recvd from this board. I am sorry to say that I was met by harsh elitist arrogance which completely turned me off i CANT REALLY BELIEVE PEOPLE ARE BEATING DOWN THE DOORS TO SEEK ORDINATION..By the way I am a mid forties guy ,4 kids, morgatge ect,With a doc and license as a psychologist. I have been working as a senior CEO type running hospital systems. as part of my mid life crisis I have decided to become a priest/pastor and teach part time--pastoral counselling. therefore I probably have the required doc but an Mdiv most likely required to be a competent pastor.
once again my most sincere appreciation for all your help.
JOHN

 

Gregg: "Ummm.... well... in the first place, Indiana Weslyan's "Master of Arts in Ministry" is not an "MMin." I suppose it's an "M.A.Min" or something like that... but my point is that it's a "master of arts" degree, generally -- and, oh-by-the-way, it just happens to be in "ministry." That's decidely differerent, purely-academically speaking, from a "Master(s) of(in) Ministry" credential. "

Gregg,

I wasn't suggesting you were mistaken regarding what title IWU uses. Different schools usually use slightly different nomenclature for the same degree. I'm spelling things out for John's sake, since he's new to the nomenclature (and the board).

Generally speaking (in the U.S.A., anyway),
M.A.Min.=M.Min.
M.A.T.S.=M.T.S.=M.A.R.

 

Ahhhhhhh! Three G's... and not in a row, too. Thank you.

Got it.

Not sure it's right, mind you...

...but I got it.

Thanks.

 

===


And it's "Wesleyan, " by the way: Two e's, not in a row

Well, actually, "in a row" yes- but not consecutively so

 

Thank you, Bill, for the observant eye. It is of utmost importance to keep all things Wesleyan in proper perspective.

 

I sometimes type "there" when I know perfectly well it's "their;" and I can name others. Do you think it mite be a brane toomer?