Name Recognition and Other Questions

I know that this is a distance learning message board, and I was looking into DL, but have decided to go the traditional route due to personal preferences. However, I still think that many of DegreeInfo members are very knowledgable, and I seek your advice on a question that is relevant to DL-ing, too.

I am hoping that the very knowledgeable and helpful members of DegreeInfo can give me some insight. I want to start grad school in January for either Mass Comm or Counseling. Because there are a limited number of programs (in areas of the country I'm willing to live, which aren't many) that have spring semester starts, my options are somewhat limited.

Yes, I know that if I were to wait to start in the fall, I'd have more school/program options and a shot at departmental financial aid, like assistantships, etc (which I'll be considered for for next fall anyway). However, I don't want to wait. So, I've chosen to work within the limitations I've placed upon myself and "get in where I fit in".

But, I need some guidance on a few matters. That's where I'm hoping that y'all can come in. The questions I have are:

1. How important is name recognition for graduate programs? For example, would a M.A. degree from the University of Oklahoma (main campus in Norman) get me farther than a M.A. from the University of Louisiana (at Monroe), with program quality and costs being about equal? (These are two of several schools I'm considering)

2. Is there any reason, other than name recognition/prestige, that a person should accept Conditional/Provisional/Probationary admission to a grad school when they can get full admission w/ no restrictions at another school?

3. I've made a policy not to look at universities/colleges whose names either 1) not well-known 2) don't have the name of the state in them or 3) if they don't have the name of the state then they must have the name of a readily recognized place. Is this too narrow-minded? I'm trying to be practical and realistic, and trying to plan now so I'll have the path of least resistance to getting a job in my chosen field, as quickly as possible upon graduating.

I think I'm forgetting something (need a nap, LOL), but these questions will do for now. Thank you all in advance!

Rosalind

 

1. It depends on too many other factors to make such a broad generalization. My suspicion is that, unless you live in Oklahoma or Louisiana, or if the difference between those two schools somehow matters in your profession, either would do. Plus, there are likely many other considerations (like costs) that would predominate.

2. Generally, you should go to the best school you can get into, can afford, and can do. All admissions to graduate school are conditional. They create that category to give them an "out" to admit someone who doesn't otherwise meet the minimum standards. But even if you're admitted unconditionally, there is still the same condition: you must make satisfactory progress. (There are some differences; in conditional status, you'll likely be required to make all your grades "B" or above, while unconditionally admitted students will be allowed a "C" here and there--but not too much.

3. There are reasons to believe that name recognition has some merit. My doctoral research implied that having a fake degree from a real-sounding school got a good reaction from potential employers, and that they resisted degrees from weird-sounding schools, even though the ones I used in the study were legitimate and accredited. But those are just inferences. You also have anecdotal evidence. Look at the number of strangely named schools that have adopted more-traditional names. Search this board's threads for more information.

 

I agree with virtually everthing Rich has said and I would only add the following. I, personally, would apply to the best program you know regardless of having to wait until Fall. My reason for this opinion is that it's relatively simple to use the time between now and September, to take some courses and transfer the credits into your new program. (Most grad programs will let you transfer 6-9 credits) This means you won't be sitting still just waiting for next Fall and you still get to go to the "best" (whatever that means for you) program you can get into. Regardless, good luck,
Jack

 

Orp. All else being equal--Monroe vs. OKC metro?

 

Sometimes, having the name of the state in it isn't a good indicator of quality or reputation.

Sometimes - a generally unknown school is very well respected in a certain profession or among certain circles.

Sometimes, program accreditation is very important! Given the choice of an ABET or CAA or NASM accredited degree from common state university is worth more than a departmentally unaccredited program at great name state college

If you get accepted unconditionally to a graduate program but can't complete it for whatever reason -- you are not at an advantage over having been conditionally accepted into a program that you can complete.

I'm betting that the prestige of an MA from either university is about equal with some differences from department-to-department.

Just a few thoughts....

 

In many academic fields, at the graduate level, the reputation of the department is probably the most important thing. There are many many cases where a school that is not on the all-purpose top-10 lists may have a department that is, and people in the field know this.

When I was looking for a doctoral school, there were three universities that were widely regarded as the best in communication theory, and throughout my entire career, the fact that I did it at Michigan State, in the 60's, with Erich Fromm, David Berlo, Milton Rokeach, Hideya Kumata, Malcolm MacLean, and other luminaries of the time, always stood me in good stead.

Similarly, although my wife was admitted at Harvard and Princeton, among others, she chose to do her Master's/Doctorate at Vanderbilt, because of the superb reputation and faculty it had in philosophy at that time. And no one in her field frets that the cheerleading squad there was called the Commodorables.

 

Here's my experience...

I graduated from a top-notch, expensive, small, private college in Illinois. When I moved back to North Carolina, I found that nobody had ever heard of this school and I was getting very stiff competition for positions from grads of Western Carolina, ETSU and Appalachian State. Now, I will be the first to stand up and say that these are all fine schools, but back when I graduated (late 80's) my little college's reputation blew them away as far as people "in the know" were concerned. It also cost nearly 4 times as much. However, the benefit of having a school with a recognizable name, regardless of its academic reputation, is important. One of the most important factors to consider is the region in which you will be seeking employment. Harvard looks good anywhere, but what about UT Martin? In Tennessee, sure, but is anyone in Oregon gonna take a UT Martin grad over a Cal State San Marcos grad given equal qualifications and equally good interviews? Who knows, but I know who I'd bet on.

The whole concept of the hiring manager or interviewer being "in the know" is a dangerous assumption. They are regular people, and may know tons about recruiting, but don't bank on them knowing about every tiny college in the country, or in Canada. The people that are "in the know" are your coworkers in the field, not necessarily the HR people. The thing to ask yourself is this: what is your gut reaction to someone who says they graduated from South Central State College? In this time of diploma mills and easy online programs, you must be diligent in choosing how to spend your money and support your career. Therefore, I think your concerns are very valid. All of us would love to hold a degree from Harvard...is it because we all want to spend $100k on our education? No, its because of the school's name. Figure out which schools have the best programs to suit your needs, and try to figure out how their names and reputations will affect your resume.

 

Scotty's comments make good sense at the undergraduate level . . . but it really is very different at the graduate level, where "who you studied with" is a big deal.

Another example: the famous and influential French philosopher, Jacques Derrida (who died a few months ago) probably would have been welcome at almost any university in the US, but for whatever reason, he spent a lot of time at UC Irvine. While no one would list UC Irvine as one of the best schools in general, if one is in the field of continental philosophy, then a credential from there would be a valuable one.

 

Thanks, Everyone!

I appreciate all of your replies!

I will be posting individual responses ASAP. I'm going to type them all up in Word and paste them, because I always get logged out for taking too long, hehe.

Guess I gotta stop thinking/editing when I type replies, huh?

 

We might remember too that some of these schools have a great reputation not because of their reputation alone but because they get results. Certainly it's a self-feeding cycle, high rep degree = good job = more prestige for the Alma Mater but;

arguably, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, ....... have the reputation they do because they accomplish something that my Alma Mater (Coastal Carolina University) hasn't yet -- they each produce large numbers of graduates who achieve.

So, as names go, Coastal Carolina University (a public masters/liberal arts university in South Carolina) has a pretty good sounding name but, who outside of the region has ever heard of it? Further, I don't use the common abbreviation of my university on this board...

My point is, there are more important considerations than the name (as opposed to reputation) of the school. What the school produces in graduates should be a major guiding factor. Are the alumni achieving their goals after graduating? Do peers assume a quality education was had simply on mention of the name of the University?
Wouldn't we assume a person with a degree from Duke University had received a quality education? We would assume that until he/she proved us wrong. Now, what about Barber-Scotia College (example only valid for those who don't know BSC)? Might we require that graduate to prove he did get a quality education instead of assuming he did?
Diploma mill operators are well aware of the value of a good name -- they name their operations accordingly. Looking for State University in a name is no longer a valid indicator of legitimacy.

So, unless the name is well known in a certain circle (or among the public in general), ABC State College will probably garner about as much respect (or suspicion) as The University of XYZ these days...

just a few thoughts...

 

What's in a name?

The name should be the LEAST thing you are concerned with. The most important aspect of a degree is in its utility. In other words, if you are able to get where you wanted to be with it, then the name really means very little.

So what if no one's heard of that school? Is it expected that all persons memorize each and every college around the country (and world!)? Can everyone get into Harvard, Princton, or MIT? If those schools were all that "mattered" in the real world, why aren't the other 3000+ schools in the nation just closing their doors? I think a lot of people let this school thing get to their heads way too much.

Some statistics that you probably would want to focus more real world attention on are:

- job placement
- avg salary of new job hires
- % that move on to graduate studies
- quality of student services
- quality of education (hard to tell from the outside looking in)

I see officers (O-1+) that get paid a lot more than I do (E-3), yet I probably could a) do what they do, b) work a lot more physically. However, I learned over time to make better choices if I want to effect a different (better) outcome. I.e. I learned how the military rank structure really worked and knew exactly where I wanted to be and started to "put the checks in the block."

They said I must have a bachelors degree from an accredited school.......check.

They said I must have interview appraisals (letters of recommendation).......check.

They said I must be of good moral character.....check.

etc. etc. etc.......almost all checked

One person told me "if you get out, make sure you have your degree".............check

It's not the "piece of paper" alone that lands you the job. It's the person behind that degree that establishes networks, writes the resume, does the interview, etc. etc. until the hiring process is complete.

http://www.123collegedegree.com/

 

Gotta disagree with you, ybfjax...

Your attitude is fantastic, and in an ideal world, your theory would stand up 100% of the time. Unfortunately, when HR people glance at your resume in that massive pile of applicants' resumes, they key in on many things and your education is one of the most important things they look for. They don't know you from Adam, but they do know that most people tend to blow things up a bit in the "Work Experience" section of the resume. But its pretty hard to twist the truth about the school you attended.

Now, you may be better at your job than all your managers, but there is a reason they are the managers and get paid more. The HR people are taking a gamble in hiring and the better school name gave that applicant a bit more negotiating leverage. It isn't fair, I grant you, but it is the way it is. In order for you to climb to the top, you gotta prove yourself. But how do you do that before you have the job? To make yourself more marketable, you want Harvard or Yale or MIT or Duke or whatever on your resume. The reason all those "other" schools don't shut their doors is because so many students can't get into/afford Harvard, Duke, MIT etc. But when that HR guy is narrowing his list of resumes to 20, if 21 of them say Harvard, Yale, MIT, etc and yours says "North South International Business School of IT Management, Culinary Arts and Welding," well, frankly it don't matta none that you can outperform all those others...you probably won't get the chance to prove it.

That is why Rosalind's original question is valid and important and why she and so many others in this forum are concerned with each school's name. We can't all get into Harvard, but if we've got $25,000 to spend on an MBA, we wanna get as close to Harvard as we can.

 

Coach,
It's not that people have not heard of Costal Carolina, but Conway SC! Maybe they need to change the name to Myrtle Beach University! Kinda like they did here in the upstate with USCS ( University of South Carolina-Spartanburg) Now it's University of South Carolina Upstate! Boy oh Boy are the students
like a nest of hornets over that move! They now have a nickname that has quickly become a household term....yes...here it is....drum roll please..... Up.U
Well at least they now have a cool parking sticker and a huge banner hanging out front; it looks like the circus came to town! 80)
-Gavin

 

Name still isn't the only thing.....

I didn't mean to sound ideal. Practical is more like it.

Perhaps I was assuming that the user would have already begun establishing contacts while they were in college, i.e. volunteer work, internships, or working part/full time while in college. The way that many people argue the name position is as if they ONLY get the piece of paper (just eat, sleep, and go to school the whole 4 years).

I mentioned other factors to job hunting to bring out the importance of being a well-rounded person.

The school name on a piece of paper alone CANNOT be the single determining factor of job placement. Otherwise, why have background checks, interviews, etc? Why not just hire the person virtually on the spot? (He/She's from Harvard, so no further investigation is required. He's perfect for the job).

In my case, a bachelors degree from [any name here] + x years prior service military + any applicable certificates and licenses = a lot of job opportunities. IF you know where to look (and this goes back to the INDIVIDUAL doing his/her homework).

I guarantee you somebody you work for, with, or their spouse has prior service (any branch).

I've had jobs before the military and know several people who have jobs. The general consensus is that it is most imporatant to know somebody that works there (networking). Relevant work experience is also at #1 or #2 spot. The piece of paper degree helps you keep the foot in the door.

I actually think we are on the same page on the first part of that sentence. But the name game is too subjective of a criteria to align name reputations with hiring (by itself).

 

litmus test...

...you got $25,000 to spend on a two-year, entirely DL MBA program. You've narrowed it down to two choices who are equal in all ways but two: price and name. Choice A costs $20,000 and is called "Upstate University College". Choice B costs $25,000 and is called "University of Massachusetts, Amherst." Given the names and the cost differences, and the fact that you are going to need to find the best job you can find when the two years is up, which program do you choose, assuming you can complete either one with equal ease?

 

honestly, I'd choose....

Also assuming that your chances of actually getting accepted into either program are equal, I'd go with:

University of Mass, Amherst

I do admit that Colorado Technical University "sounds" more professional than Bellevue University. So does Georgia Institute of Technology (Georgia Tech), yet I originally chose to go to Georgia State University (right down the street) when I was starting my education. A LOT of Georgia Tech students have told me they wish they'd chosen GSU instead (cost, flexibility, etc.) (note: this is for majors that both schools had).

Here's a real world example: After my mad dash for my BS from Excelsior, I was encoraged to look into Master's programs. Obviously with my current active duty status, I needed a distance learning option that was flexibile (such as Excelsior). I narrowed it down to American Intercontinental University and Colorado Technical University. Both are very similar (they're owned by the same company, career ed corp). Both regionally accredited, private, 100% distance learning, highly structured, check-in-the-block degree plans, have brick/mortar locations (AIU has several) and would "look good" on a resume.

AIU's MBA was $30,000
CTU's MSM was $25,000 (they also have an eMBA for about $28,000)

Ironically, with CTU you get a little more for less (3 certificates from the Project Management Institute on the way to graduation.)

AIU's master's programs were shorter (10 months), but costs more. CTU's are 15 months, and costs less. Plus if I were using only MGIB, which pays out benefits by the month, then CTU's program obviously works out better financially.

But why stop at merely the school name?

**A perfect example of my own bias:

I preferred an MS in Business Mgmt vs. an MBA. Both cover the same material (or almost the same), but I've heard that and MS is considered more scholarly and would make it easier to move on to a Doctorate. But again, once your on the Master's level in a similar subject area, does the degree major title itself now get scrutinized? What about Computer Technology vs. Computer Information Systems vs. Computer Science vs. Computer Networking?

In fact, I will start a new thread just on that very topic (MSM vs. eMBA).

I agree that the school name does have some relevance on career development. The exact degree relevance cannot be quantified with an exact science. But do you get my point about how ridiculus the name game can get if you implicate it far enough?

If I can put food on the table, hold down my mortgage (rent) and have enough left over for [your goals here], as far as I know the degree worked out fine for me (utility).

 

You are right on all points...

...especially that the name game can get ridiculous. But for distance learners navigating the treacherous waters of diploma mills and for-profit schools, the name game takes on added significance, especially when one is in Florida but the school is in Minnesota. You will have to explain the online factor at some point to a hiring manager and it is easier to handle with a known name like UMass than a school that may be great but has a potentially unfamiliar name, like AIU. Even though I have heard of AIU, I have no idea where it is located, if it has a campus or is just virtual, or what its reputation is. Even if it is better than UMass, I feel less suspicious when someone says, "I graduated from UMass." Plus, the question of "online" might never come up. With DL, it becomes difficult because there are so many schools out there with unfamiliar names that have jumped into the public spotlight by offering online degrees. Take Univ of Phoenix. Even if I went to the B&M campus in Phoenix, because of their heavy internet marketing, I bet that most people will assume I did the degree online. I had never heard of UoP before they started bombarding the internet. As a result, squeezing the most out of a school's name is very important for many online students.

Just like my situation (posted earlier in this thread), I went to a good school, but it was small, private and relatively unknown outside of its region. I might have been better served in my job search had I gone to Tennessee Tech.

I'll share a dirty secret with you. I MAY choose my online MBA program based not on the specific program's reputation, but on the B&M business school's reputation. For instance, I am interested in the Indiana program (Kelley) because the brick and mortar school has a fantastic reputation. I am betting that a hiring manager will see "MBA, Kelley School of Business, Indiana University" and not ask me whether it was online or not. He may not care. He may have no idea how good or bad the online program is, but he has a general idea how good the full-time program is. If he does figure out that I got it online, I'm betting that he's betting that it doesn't matter as much as if I got my online degree from Lincoln Log College of Construction Management. Of course, if the online program has some serious faults, I will certainly take that into consideration. My approach may be flawed, and I may lose the bet, but that is my strategy.

The trick to all this is balancing the school's name with the skills it gives you. You may get the job because you hold a Texas A&M degree, but if you don't know what you're doing, you won't be in the job for long. On the other hand, you may have received top notch training at Southeastern Chernobyl College of Nuclear Safety, but you might not get the chance to show that if the foot doesn't get in the door.

The final difference may be in whether the mortgage you qualify for is $75,000 or $275,000. Shallow, I know, but for many its the American dream and earning potential is often tied to school name.

 

"litmus test...
...you got $25,000 to spend on a two-year, entirely DL MBA program. You've narrowed it down to two choices who are equal in all ways but two: price and name. Choice A costs $20,000 and is called "Upstate University College". Choice B costs $25,000 and is called "University of Massachusetts, Amherst." Given the names and the cost differences, and the fact that you are going to need to find the best job you can find when the two years is up, which program do you choose, assuming you can complete either one with equal ease?"

I had this exact scenario happen to me. I applied to the Norwich University and UMass-Amherst MBA programs and was accepted to both. I chose Norwich University for several reasons but primarily because the program was a much better fit for me. The cohort structure plus the required one week residency at the end of the program sealed the deal. If I was going to do a DL program I wanted to make sure I would make some people connections along the way. I didn't feel like I would get this at UMass.

Furthermore, as an IT Director that does quite a bit of hiring, I could care less where people get their degrees from. It is one very small part of the hiring equation. My only requirement is that their degree is from a RA school. I am much more interested in the person as a whole and what they are committed to in life. I think that ruling people out based on the school they went to is ridiculous. There are many talented people out there and not all of them went to Harvard, Duke, Yale, Penn, etc.
--
RB

 

Arby,

I have always looked at the Norwich University MBA Program with a degree of interest (probably because it is just about the closest DL MBA program to be geographically, so it wouldn't looks as strange on my resume). Any comments on how you liked/are liking the program? And about the 6 credits of e-commerce, do you find that a lot?

Thanks in advance.

 

ybfjax,

I once worked for a consulting firm (that shall remain nameless) that recruited exclusively out of the Big 12 South (for those of you non-College football fans that’s UT-Austin, Texas A&M-College Station, OU-Norman, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech and Baylor) plus Rice and the University of Houston.

One time, I referred a newly grad from nearby Sam Houston State University to our recruiting department. This person was graduating with a BBA/Accounting (one of the preferred majors), participated in a bunch of extra-curricular activities and had a perfect 4.0 GPA. HR’s answer was simply “sorry, we don’t recruit at Sam.” This firm was willing to pass on a very well qualified candidate simply because of the school name.

When the firm hired experienced workers (non-entry level positions) most of the people hired would have a degree from UT-Austin or Texas A&M-College Station… coincidentally about 90% of the people in the office had degrees from those two schools.

So, name recognition in some occasions can play a big role in landing a job. In this case, if someone really wanted to work for this firm (and a lot of people did) you have to earn a degree from the “right place.” I never agreed with the firm’s hiring philosophy, but this is just to illustrate that sometimes name recognition is all that matters.