Have we changed...

It used to be that few "foreign" schools/programs were every discussed... lately it seems that the majority of the discussions concerning foreign opportunities... does this indicate a change in the DL Universe???

 

Ken,

I think your term "DL Universe" is indicative of a growing trend, or at least an awareness of non-US opportunities. The Internet, as well as other technology, has opened a new set of options for the DL student. I don't know that it represents a radical change in paradigm, but definitely an expansion of credible options.

The South African and Australian educational systems are based (for the most part) on the UK model of mentoring/tutoring, research, collaboration and writing. This is especially true at the graduate level. So the UK/SA/Australian options which meet GAAP criteria are becoming more recognized among DL students. For example, I spoke with the registrar at University of Texas-Austin, who also serves with AACRAO (Robert Watkins), and was told that a doctorate from Potchefstroom would be recognized at UT-A as equivalent to a US RA doctorate. So yes, at least the options are changing, and becoming more numerous.

Russell

 

Methinks Levicoff is in his semi somewhere crying.

 

Lewchuk, if some of the discussions are moving in that direction, it may be reflective of the fact that schools outside the U.S. are more receptive to distance learning, especially at the doctoral level. More than one member here has expressed frustration over limited DL doctoral options in the U.S., typically having to choose between the handful of RA (and often quite expensive) Ph.D. and Ed.D. programs and the very uneven lot of non-RA doctoral programs.

 

I doubt it. This board probably isn't particularly representative of the 'DL Universe' in the first place, and I doubt if the entire universe changes that quickly anyway. More likely it is a consequence of the death of AED.

That newsgroup hosted questions by new people every day. The questions were usually about the same things: MBAs and CS/CIS degrees. It may have gotten a little repetitive, but it reflected public interest.

Now degreeinfo seems more dominated by regulars, and interests have shifted as a result. As David Yamada points out, doctorates are of increased interest now, and that brings with it interest in the British/Australian "research" degrees.

There has to be a bit of controversy too. Since hundreds of perfectly fine DL programs are not controversial, we don't shower the attention on them that we have given to MIGS or to Greenwich. That shouldn't be interpreted as meaning that those programs are out of favor with the wider DL Universe.

I do think that there is a growing trend towards globalization in distance education, just like in everything else. That's why I have kept harping on issues like the integrity of GAAP. National origin of educational qualifications will probably come to mean less and less as time goes on. Whether that implies a growing (Americanized?) standardization of world-wide higher education and whether that is really a good thing are separate issues. But it's a long-term secular change.

 

I think it was Lewchuk who expressed his dismay with the cost of doctoral programs in the US and he is right. Sometimes I wonder whether I could be in the program if my employer is not picking up the tab. I am sure that I wouldn't have opted for student loan because of family responsibility. The best bet is to seek employment with companies that have tuition reimbursement plan. And that’s what I did. I have changed employment twice between the time I started masters program and now that am finishing my doctoral program, but I have never paid tuition from my pocket.

Ike
ABD (Information Systems)
Nova Sotheastern University

 

This is an interesting point, David. One of the potential problems with DL in conventional U.S. graduate programs is the question of support. In my own case, I may not have pursued an M.S. and Ph.D. without the financial support the universities that I applied to were willing to provide. In essence, like many (I think!) in this forum that obtained graduate degrees by a traditional route, my graduate education was essentially "free". Of course, there was a service expectation, which was required of everyone in my program. In the program that I am currently involved in as a faculty member (entirely non-DL at the moment, but we are considering DL), we won't even consider accepting a student that we aren't willing/able to support. It will be interesting to see how "traditional" programs that adopt distance learning modes will deal with this situation. For the most part, it seems that the "nontraditional" institutions in the U.S. won't even consider the prospect of supporting graduate students. However, with DL institutions, we are dealing with an entirely different culture. The non-profit DL's normally don't have the resources and the for-profit DL's normally don't feel a need to provide such a service, since they largely deal with a more mature, currently-employed clientele. Speaking as a scientist, I don't like the idea of unsupported graduate students - part-time or not! Oh well... more about that some other time!

Mark

 

I somewhat disagree. I think the shift has been in the knowledge of foreign alternatives in the US. This number is very small but is going to grow exponentially... much faster than DL in the US as a whole. The reason is simple, I can either take a finance course from a fourth-tier, non-profit, financially shaken, university in San Francisco for $1400 or a finance course from a respected public Australian University for $350 and it appears that they will be equally valuable.

 

Shift in what, this discussion board? If you are arguing that degreeinfo's increased interest in foreign doctoral programs over the last few weeks is indicative of a fundamental change in wider public attitudes or something, I don't agree.

A lot of our interest has concerned South African theological degrees. That seems like a very specialized interest to me. Does anyone really believe that the general public has dropped their overwhelming interest in computer careers and suddenly developed this insatiable desire to write doctoral dissertations on Biblical hermeneutics?

If so, the cultural effects of the collapse of the high-tech dot.com bubble have been a lot more dramatic than I thought.

I do think that the growth of distance education will gradually contribute to the globalization of higher education, but the process is a lot slower than the compressed time-scale of newsgroup changes. Subsequent changes in worldwide public attitude will follow, not lead.

 

Well said, David,

We all know that American states have the power and authority to put people to death for capital offences, but apparently not (according to some people) to issue/approve authoritative degrees.

Which is why qualifications from anywhere including Timbuktu are preferable choices to many of those Americans locked into the "accreditation" mindset (not for selfish reasons of course).

Likewise, California state-approved degrees are regarded as "worthless" by those same people despite California itself having the potential of being a G7 "country", having twice the population of Canada and 400,000 students in 3,000 BPPVE-approved post-secondary institutes.

Cheers,

Neil

 

It all depends on what the word "authoritative" means, doesn't it?

Nobody has ever denied that states have the legal right to approve and authorize universities within their boundaries. The question then becomes whether those universities are any good, and that's not something you can simply legislate.

If a state can legislate that all universities on its territory are good, then why not pass a law stating that all research done in that state is Nobel prize quality?

I don't know anything about higher education standards in Mali. But I have been a loud critic on this newsgroup of a too-slavish reliance on 'GAAP' listings. I'll agree with you that some American state-approved schools are probably academically superior to some foreign GAAP schools. Berne comes to mind. The missing ingredient is a credible outside quality-assurance mechanism.

How is California's size relevant to the issue? Does a larger state necessarily enforce higher academic standards? (The mere size of the CA-approved universe suggests that BPPVE oversight is minimal.)

The issue here is why anyone should believe in these CA-approved schools in the absence of credible accreditation. Obviously if a CA-approved school made itself into a world renowned research institute, the problem of lack of accreditation would be less pressing. But few if any meet that standard. If they could find another form of outside quality assurance besides RA, they would buttress their credibility, and a number have taken this path. SF Law School and Lincoln are CA Bar accredited. The Institute of Buddhist Studies has entered into an affiliation agreement with the Graduate Theological Union where one earns an RA GTU degree for work at the IBS. Several meet the state requirements for state psychology licensure, which adds some credibility.

There are even places like the Institute for Advanced Study of Human ***uality in San Francisco (didn't want your ISP to have a stroke) that have perhaps developed a bit of a reputation in a niche field.

I am certainly not attacking the education that one may find at a CA-approved school. I'm giving them consideration myself. Education is great wherever you can find it, and if you can find a group of people interested in pursuing the same arcane subjects as you are, that's very cool.

But I am skeptical abut them offering degrees. A degree indicates that a student has met a public standard. If there is no credible reason to believe that the school maintains that standard, the degree becomes meaningless at best.

Sure, their state approval gives them the legal right to grant them, but it doesn't necessarily give them the authority in the broader sense.

 

Lets take this logic a bit further. What if, not only is there no reason to believe that the school maintains an accepted standard, but that reasons exist which reveal that the school does not maintain such a standard. For example, quality and rigor of course work, degree requirements, excessive life experience credit, unqualified faculty, etc.

Yes, this is indeed reason to be sceptical, and to view such a degree as "meaningless at best."

 

Sorry, this should be "skeptical."

Didn't want the "spelling/grammar squad" to turn the sirens on.

 

How about Dr. Bear and everyone who reads his guides? The number of foreign schools he profiles/recommends and significantly increased in number over the last number of editions.

 

How about Dr. Bear and everyone who reads his guides? The number of foreign schools he profiles/recommends and significantly increased in number over the last number of editions.

 

Hi Russel.

You don't have to be sorry because the British spelling is "sceptical" while in American English, it is "skeptical". Again, we don't have to be overly picky and concerned about minor spelling mistakes.

Ike

 

I assume you are using hyperbole as the last time I checked California did not have twice the population of Canada.

I also assume you are being facetious because if we compare the track record of state approved schools in California vs approved Canadian schools I think we see a significant difference in quality. Mind you Canadians are missing out on Doctor of Metaphysics degrees (I believe there was at least one school Metaphysics University. I could be wrong and they could have religious exepmtion).

On a more serious note it might not be a bad idea if states were (through their departments of education) to begin accrediting schools. This would be a good regulatory function for states to have and in line with their other regulatory powers. A tough stance could go a long way to eliminating diploma/degree mills.

North

 

Actually many BPPVE institutes are accredited by recognized national accrediting agencies. In California, all those without WASC RA are put under BPPVE's control, even some RA institutes' California branches.

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Jonathan Liu
http://www.geocities.com/liu_jonathan/distance.html

 

Maybe it because RA doesn't benefit a law school graduate to practice law, so SF LS and Lincoln LS of SJ don't go for it. But we do have standing-alone California LS has RA, such as San Joaquin College of Law (Fresno). So for some professional institutes, non-RA may not mean low quality.



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Jonathan Liu
http://www.geocities.com/liu_jonathan/distance.html

 

I think it is about 1.1:1. California has more.



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Jonathan Liu
http://www.geocities.com/liu_jonathan/distance.html