Professoring Question

I know this has been discussed before, but in my feeble efforts to search the archives, I really didn't find too much.

I am interested in finishing up some MA work looking toward a PhD. I will give more information about this in a sec. But first my question.

I would like to become a University/College professor. Since I currently live in eastern Europe, it limits my eductional possibilities. What I want to know is the how likely is it that some college (community or otherwise) to hire someone without college level teaching experience with only a Masters (but working on a doctorate)?

Heres a little more detail. I am working on an MA in Christian Ministry from Abilene Christian University . However, I also have a BA in English from UTSA . I am in talks with several South African universities about working on an MA in English, as well.

I am just trying to get my bearings on this. Either subject is fine for me to teach, though I suspect there would be more openings in English.

I looked around at several higher education job listings and the often want so many hours in a particular subject. How would a foreign degree by Thesis be considered in such a situation?

Thanks for your input.

clint

 

I guess I should mention that my interest would be in teaching at institutions within the United States, at least for the time being.

thanks,
clint

 

My wife tells me that in the California Community College system, doctorates are not required, and there is no doctoral pay. Indeed, as I've reported here, she was hired for the job she's held 7 or 8 years now (Vista Community College) based solely on her (DL) Master's; her Ph.D. in philosophy was NOT relevant to her hiring to teach philosophy because philosophy is in the Humanities department (and that's what her Master's is in). No, it's not very rational, but that's how it is.

Also, I believe, the community colleges in Calif. have a three year trial period, where people do not have to have the usually-necessary degrees, if there is a prospect of getting one by the end of that time.

 

Wondering...

Yes, a community college teacher doesn't always need a PhD (look at the Chronicle's vacancies for CCs, some ask for PhD, some would be satisfied with MA).

But, aside from the fact that a CC lecturer is not a professor, it is not clear what proefssorship you would like to take. English? Theology/Ministry of some kind?

 

First, I was not trying to differentiate between lecturers, Instructors, Professors, Adjuncts, etc for this conversation. I know the difference exists, but I was basically just trying to see if it would be possible to get my foot in the door with only a Masters.

Second, I tried to say (but probably failed to do so) that I assumed there would be more options for me in the field of English, but that I would also be perfectly fine teaching religion. So I would be open to either, or both.

Third, as mentioned in the post above this one, some institutions require 18 graduate hours or so in a certain field. How is this accomplished through a research degree (such as those from South Africa)? Is it possible? Does it matter?

thanks for your comments, I appreciate them

clint

 

As someone who also is interested in teaching at a community college or university, I have done some research into this. What I found was not too comforting.

There are A LOT of PhDs (and PhD-ABDs) out there already looking for work, especially in the liberal arts. Only having a master's puts you at the bottom of usually a very very long list. Having a DL degree from a foreign institution doesn't help either.

Those schools that do hire people with master's degrees do so because they can pay them much less than PhD holders. Usually they have no benefits whatsoever, and are sometimes even paid hourly regardless of the class size they are teaching.

 

As Floyd Pepper suggests, the Chronicle of Higher Education is the primary place that higher ed jobs are advertised. I don't think you need to be a subscriber to access their classified ads (about 1,200 in the current issue):
http://chronicle.com/jobs/100/

Searchable by key words, and by location (within N miles of a given zip code). This week there are about 60 that say 'religion' and 130 that say 'English.'

 

I assume endowave is discussing the situation at universities and highly-regarded four year colleges. There, it's very true that there are too many liberal arts PhDs chasing too few positions, but at the CC level and with middling or less-regarded four years, that's not the case at all.

At the CC where I teach as an adjunct--with a non-research "doctorate"--the great majority of full-time instructors with full benefits do not have a PhD. I believe out of 25 FT instructors here, 20 do not have a doctorate--and a few are still in pursuit of their masters as they are teaching. Many positions only require 18 credit hours in the field to teach as an adjunct or an instructor. Example: I have a friend who's a full time instructor in Economics who has an MA in higher education, but he has about 20 hours of graduate econ credits, and one of the full-time, salaried instructors in mathematics has only a bachelor's and has yet to receive her masters.

Have you looked into some of the smaller sectarian colleges with an missionary bent?--they may see a professor with intimate knowledge of European cultures as a huge asset, for obvious reasons. It's all in how you package it.

 

No doubt the packaging helps. I am cool with teaching in pretty much any sort of setting, CCs whatever. Of course, at the moment, all of this is academic (pun mostly intended). I have about 3 more years here anyway. I am just sort of planning for the future. Waiting until then to start a MA would be fairly late .

I do appreciate all the input. I want a full-time position, not an adjunct, if possible. I would plan on continuing on with the next level of education (PhD), but just wondered if I would be able to get the ball rolling before I had gone that far down the path.

My MA in Christian Ministry is a 54 hour degree that is composed completely of taught courses. No research or thesis.

I don't know why I threw that in, but there it is.

anyway, thanks again,

clint

 

I would agree with most of what has been posted here. I have taught college for 25 years, the last 11 in one CC district. It is true that there are lots of Ph.D./ABD types looking for work, and many are hired as adjuncts at CCs. In the district in which I teach, few become full-timers. This is largely, I think, because most Ph.D.s go on to teaching at the four-year level or drop out of teaching entirely. Looking at the faculty roster in my college, I would say that 2/3 to 3/4 of the full-timers do not have a doctorate. More doctorates are being hired as full-timers than before, but the transition to a primarily doctoral CC faculty is slow, although I think that's the way things are progressing. In either case, CC full-time openings are still very few. There have been rumors--published in various periodicals, including The Chronicle--since the mid-80s of a massive die-off or retirement in academia. I have yet to see much increase in new hiring as a result--for various reasons.

The "research" degree is a significant obstacle to CC teaching, I think. The entire district here has just gone through a SACS reaccreditation self-study, and the credentials examiners were not kind. They wanted fidelity to the letter: a graduate degree and 18-hours in the field taught. Some faculty had to jump through several hoops in order to demonstrate that they met the requirement. One adjunct with a Ph.D. in Humanities, concentrating in the history of ideas, from an RA school had to document that he met the requirements for teaching philosophy. All of his coursework was on philosophical subjects and his dissertation was on Husserl. His course numbers just did not begin with "PHIL." One of our few full-timers with a Ph.D., who has taught here 30 years, was suspended from teaching history--his main teaching area--because his doctorate was in American church history and he did not have enough "HIST" credit to meet the 18 requirement. He has just completed the last of this coursework--6 or 9 hours, I think, and has been reinstated to the history program.

Still, we faired much better than some of the other colleges in the district. One college had to fire nearly 1/3 of its faculty, mainly part-timers, because of credentials. Most had graduate degrees but were teaching in other areas: historians teaching geography, marketing degrees teaching accounting, psychologists teaching sociology--that sort of thing.

The point here is that pure "research" degrees in the UK mould cannot meet the "18-hour" requirement. Somehow, you are going to have to demonstrate that equivalence, either through coursework in addition to the thesis or by taking a "taught" degree, as the British would say. At the risk of being a little brutal: if you had someone an application who clearly met the college's hiring requirements (and would keep you out of trouble with the accreditation committee) and an application of someone else who might meet the requirements with some pushing and tugging and squeezing, who would you hire? Remember that we are not talking about specialists here. Teaching at the CC level is a generalist occupation. Outside of the reputation of the school--which is always a factor in hiring, of course--one English teacher is as good as another. This is particularly true for beginning teachers.

If your heart is set on teaching in a CC in the US, I would look for DL opportunities in English or religion in the US. There are few open faculty positions as it is. Why stack the deck against yourself?

Good luck in your endeavors.

marilynd

 

There are some distance doctorate programs out there in Christian Ministry, theology and the like.

http://www.gospelcom.net/bakersguide/doctoral.php

You might be able to finish up a U.S. doctorate overseas--albeit likely with some residency required. Of course, such a degree would limit your opportunities somewhat, but may set you up reasonably well for one of the many private Christian schools nationwide.

 

CC Teaching

In previous posts, I've talked about my experiences as a fulltimer at a community college. I've been on many hiring committees and frankly a Ph.D. causes more questions than answers. There are sooo many Ph.D's floating around. Many have no idea what a role a faculty has at a community college and they usually sink themselves in the interview (Will I get research time? How many publications must I write?). I was an adjunct for parts of 20 years before I landed my first full time faculty position. In fact, we all have had a career doing something else fulltime before coming here. You just don't see that many 25-year-old Ph.D.'s as fulltimers at a community college. I'm at one of the Maricopa Colleges in the Phoenix area and I can tell you the pay is great. Now, once hired, go get a doctorate if you want as it will get you more pay. What I did was get two additional graduate degrees that put me within $1800 of a Ph.D. Shoot, my BASE is $75k and I always teach over my contract. PLUS, I teach as an adjunct with the University of Maryland University College. Do the math and figure out what I make a year and 1/1 millionth of the hassle that comes with a university faculty position. Not a bad life.

 

Well it's good to know that the teaching outlook isn't as bad as I first read about. In fact, some other things that I've read recently point the other way. The Occupational Outlook Handbook says that employment for postsecondary teachers is expected to grow much faster than the average for all occupations through 2012. (I hope to have finished my PhD by then)

 

Shoot, my BASE is $75k and I always teach over my contract. PLUS, I teach as an adjunct with the University of Maryland University College. Do the math and figure out what I make a year and 1/1 millionth of the hassle that comes with a university faculty position. Not a bad life.
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YOWZERS! That's twice what they pay a full-timer at my little CC! I think the handful of PhDs here only make $40s; the people with Masters are around $30 or so--of course, you can buy a five bedroom turn-of-the-century Victorian with half an acre of wooded land for $80K here as well. But if I remember correctly from my days in AZ, the price of living wasn't exactly astronomical there.

Are they hiring there in Phoenix? Where do I sign up?

 

Well it's good to know that the teaching outlook isn't as bad as I first read about. In fact, some other things that I've read recently point the other way. The Occupational Outlook Handbook says that employment for postsecondary teachers is expected to grow much faster than the average for all occupations through 2012. (I hope to have finished my PhD by then)
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Good luck with that PhD! My best guess is that the next 10 years should be a boom time for higher education positions as the Baby Boomers retire, buy the motorhome with the little truck hitched to the back, and drift off into the Florida sunset.

It will be a great time for financial advisors and estate planning attorneys as well. It will be hades for all those who are trying to pay the taxes brought about by the crush on the social security system, however. The first wave of Baby Boomers will be eligible for early retirement and social security in three years--get ready!

 

This raises another question for me, as well. In the work for my MA in Christian Ministry, I will be taking 9 hours of CHurch History. The course numbers are listed as BHIS. Would that be acceptable, in your opinion for teaching History? I know I would need another 9 hours, but does the nomenclature meet the criteria? Just wondering.

I am looking for programs in the US, but I just honestly can't afford them. My church pays for the MA.

thanks again,
clint

 

The example I chose, of course, was one instance of problems with one accreditation committee; one instance of the issues that CCs have to consider when hiring. I have been through the SACS process four times, including one from-scratch accreditation self-study. Each committee is a little different. Each regional accreditation commission is a little different as well. Then there are national and professional accrediting bodies, each a different. There is no way to specify what will or won't be acceptable to a college before hiring. Much has to do with an interaction of needs and timing (e.g., what the school needs and how bad it needs it when your application shows up). This will also influence whether and how much they will be willing to bend their own rules.

As a rule of thumb, I would say that most deans don't much like the exotic. They don't like to have to explain or justify their hires unless there is a compelling reason to do so. That's the easiest road--do the things they will most easily recognize and understand. However, you can only do what you can do. I have always thought that a person should go for the best education possible under the circumstances, and the hiring will sort itself out. If you're well trained--and lucky--you'll find a teaching job, if not in a CC, then in a religious college or seminary.

Whether or not church history will count as history will depend upon the particular dean or search committee who is looking at your application. There is a difference, not only in terms of subject but also training in methodology. In a CC setting, you're better off with straight "secular" history. After all, that is what you are going to be asked to teach. I would not expect that your church history course will automatically count as history courses. If you want to broaden your prospects, look for opportunities to take DL courses in history or English are whatever you want to teach, even though they are not part of your graduate degree. Also, be aware that some CCs teach religion courses.

Gook luck to you.

marilynd

 

Thanks. I really am not worrying about it, I am just curious and want to get good advice from some folks who have already gone down this path.

So just to clarify... at the CC level, if I have an MA in Christian Ministry (which I will have in a bit) and then on the side I take 18 grad hours of English/History/Basket Weaving or whatever, then I would be qualified to teach those subjects - at least according to the standards?


clint

 

Yes