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  1. #1
    wh431 is offline Registered User
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    Equivalency of a german degree to US

    Hi every1,

    do anyone here has some experience or idea about getting admission into a US MS degree programm with an under grad. degree from a german "University of applied Sciences" (Called Fachochschule).

    Its a 4 yrs degree with the german title"Diplom Informatiker (FH)".

    Thankyou

    WH

  2. #2
    dede is offline Registered User
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    First, I don’t know its Equivalency to us degree, but let me quote the definition of FH:

    Commonly used abbreviation for “Fachhochschule”: Polytechnic usually offering programs leading to the degree Diplom (FH). The focus of the curricula of a Fachhochschule as opposed to a university is on the practical application of the taught knowledge and not on the provided theoretical or scholarly skills.

    Secondly, for Arizona University: Proof of Abitur is required if Diplom is earned from a fachhochschule. However, the Diplom (FH). Is necessary for admission to a graduate program to The University of Arizona, Tucson, Arizona:

    Click Comparable Degrees, link below:

    http://grad.arizona.edu/prospect/intlcompdegrees.php

    For further information on: Admission Requirements for International Students.

  3. #3
    triggersoft is offline Registered User
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    hi wh431,

    generally, a German university degree is NOT an undergraduate degree.

    Since Germany did not have the Bachelor/Master system so far, but only the "Diplom" degrees which are a lot longer in terms of regular study times (7-8 semesters at the Fachochschule, 9-10 semesters at the Universität), as well as in REAL avergage study times (~ 12 semesters) + 1 year more in high school than the Americans (13 years school education altogether), the OFFICIAL comparisons look roughly like this:

    ---

    German "Abitur" (13 years) + Vordiplom + 1/2 Hauptstudium (University) = Bachelorīs degree

    German "Fachhochhochschulreife" (12 years) + Diplom Fachhochschule (7-8 semesters official study time) = GB Bachelor with Honours degree

    German "Abitur" (13 years) + Diplom Universität (9-10 semesters official study time) = Anglo-American Masterīs degree

    ---

    So, all in all, your Fachhochschul-degree is most certainly equivalent to an American education on Bachelorīs level, without any doubt.

    Go to the "Akademisches Auslandsamt" of your degree issuing Fachhochschule (the official English translation is actually "University of Applied Sciences", although Polytechnic would be most comparable also), and ask for an equivalency letter or something similar.

    Or get information on the English web sites of the www.daad.de !

    And/or send your diploma copies to a NACES credential evaluation service in the USA, they will certify you that a German Fachhochschul diploma is worth at least the same as an American Bachelorīs.

    Greets,
    T.

  4. #4
    dede is offline Registered User
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    Re: Equivalency of a german degree to US

    Originally posted by wh431
    Hi every1,

    do anyone here has some experience or idea about getting admission into a US MS degree programm with an under grad. degree from a german "University of applied Sciences" (Called Fachochschule).

    Its a 4 yrs degree with the german title"Diplom Informatiker (FH)".

    Thankyou

    WH
    I feel that your question has received much answer, regarding the German qualification assessment into the US standard.

    So, I am trying now here not to switch the discussion away, but I think this must be a related one to our topic. However, it is about German evaluation to American Regionally accredited degree. And my question is:

    Do the German have recognition to a BA/ BS regionally accredited, earned through distance learning?

  5. #5
    triggersoft is offline Registered User
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    Re: Re: Equivalency of a german degree to US

    Originally posted by dede

    However, it is about German evaluation to American Regionally accredited degree. And my question is:

    Do the German have recognition to a BA/ BS regionally accredited, earned through distance learning?

    Clear answer: it depends
    ;)

    Itīs a little complicated since - as I told - so far our system didnīt have such a "low" degree as the Bachelorīs.

    This has changed a little in the last 4 years, since the beginning of the introduction of the Bachelor/Master system to German universities. Though, up till now, only 15-20 % of all university programs do already end with the new degrees, the vast majority still ends with the traditional diplomas. So, recognition is not really widespread yet in terms in terms of the industry, more in terms of students and professors. Up till the year 2010, all EU member countries HAVE TO introduce the Bachelor/Master system and end their old local ones! So, we are right in the middle of an enormous change process which is not at its highest point yet, although awareness (also of the media) is STRONGLY increasing. I reckon the climax will be in 1-2 years; then, nearly everybody will know the new degrees and be able to evaluate them.

    Regarding recgonition of an American Bachelorīs degree, I would also say: it depends. Of course it will (in most cases) be all right for enterin a German Masterīs program.
    But in industry, you will not really find a good job with a Bachelorīs at all (if even a job at all), no matter if it comes from the US, GB, or even German universities. Why should German companies hire Bachelor graduates if they have thousands and thousands of German university Diploma graduates (which are considered as Masterīs equivalent, as I described in my first posting). So, in terms of Business, a Bachelorīs is not worth much, and will (in my opinion) never be worth much in Germany (maybe only exception: a Bachelorīs from Harvard, Yale, etc.). You will need a Masterīs to get access to good jobs, trainee programs, etc.

    We Germanīs donīt look so much on whether itīs a traditional or a DL degree, the name of the university counts. If itīs a "known" university, such as the US News&World Report leagues 1-4, or if itīs a "xxx state university", the Bachelorīs will be accepted. If it comes from a DETC school, or some very tiny RA school which nobody in Germany has ever heard of, it will be a lot harder... - also in terms of "nostrification" (the official ministry of education "allowance" to "lead" your degree - besides, most people in academia in Germany would not "lead" their Bachelorīs after their name anyway - that would only be done with a Masterīs, in most cases).

    I hope I could have helped a little,
    regards,
    t.

  6. #6
    wh431 is offline Registered User
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    Re: Re: Re: Equivalency of a german degree to US

    Thanks for ur replies. I still am looking for some one with a personal experience of getting into a US MS programm with a german Diplom degree from a FH.



    Originally posted by triggersoft



    Clear answer: it depends
    ;)

    Itīs a little complicated since - as I told - so far our system didnīt have such a "low" degree as the Bachelorīs.

    This has changed a little in the last 4 years, since the beginning of the introduction of the Bachelor/Master system to German universities. Though, up till now, only 15-20 % of all university programs do already end with the new degrees, the vast majority still ends with the traditional diplomas. So, recognition is not really widespread yet in terms in terms of the industry, more in terms of students and professors. Up till the year 2010, all EU member countries HAVE TO introduce the Bachelor/Master system and end their old local ones! So, we are right in the middle of an enormous change process which is not at its highest point yet, although awareness (also of the media) is STRONGLY increasing. I reckon the climax will be in 1-2 years; then, nearly everybody will know the new degrees and be able to evaluate them.

    Well there is a lot of confusion at the moement in german educatiomnal system and and many ppl dont what is equivalent to what within german educational system like for example there are different types of higher educationl systems like:

    Berufsakademien: Which call themselves University of corporate Education . (Duration 3 years, in form sandwich courses. With half of the study time spent in the sponsoring company or real life projects. So less theoratical in depth)

    Fachochschulen: Which call themselves University of Applied Sciences. ( Duration 4 years. The nature of courses are very much focused on application of Technology in industry. So here the study duration and Semester hours are very the same as in US Bachelors)

    and Universtitaeten: Which claim to be the only legitimate Universities. (Duration 5-6 Years. Courses very much Theory lasted and definitely an overkill for someone wanting to have a "Bachelor level" degree)


    All of these higher educational institutes award Diplom degrees, so now the question is which "Diplom" we are talking of comparing a standard 4yrs US-Bachelord degree.



    Regarding recgonition of an American Bachelorīs degree, I would also say: it depends. Of course it will (in most cases) be all right for enterin a German Masterīs program.
    But in industry, you will not really find a good job with a Bachelorīs at all (if even a job at all), no matter if it comes from the US, GB, or even German universities. Why should German companies hire Bachelor graduates if they have thousands and thousands of German university Diploma graduates (which are considered as Masterīs equivalent, as I described in my first posting). So, in terms of Business, a Bachelorīs is not worth much, and will (in my opinion) never be worth much in Germany (maybe only exception: a Bachelorīs from Harvard, Yale, etc.). You will need a Masterīs to get access to good jobs, trainee programs, etc.

    The reason is that Distance learning do not exist much in the german speaking countries. So ppl and companies are very much un aware of so called "Fernstudium". And also there are "almost" no private universities in Germany, so since all the Universities are state owned there is no issue of accrediation.



    We Germanīs donīt look so much on whether itīs a traditional or a DL degree, the name of the university counts. If itīs a "known" university, such as the US News&World Report leagues 1-4, or if itīs a "xxx state university", the Bachelorīs will be accepted. If it comes from a DETC school, or some very tiny RA school which nobody in Germany has ever heard of, it will be a lot harder... - also in terms of "nostrification" (the official ministry of education "allowance" to "lead" your degree - besides, most people in academia in Germany would not "lead" their Bachelorīs after their name anyway - that would only be done with a Masterīs, in most cases).

    I hope I could have helped a little,
    regards,
    t.
    I agree with u that in terms of employment, one dont stand much chance with a "normal" US/UK/AUS Bachelors degree (unless its from a top notch school).

    But seen from academic point of view a US Bachelors from a RA school is definitely eligible to apply for a Masters programm at a german University/FH.

  7. #7
    dede is offline Registered User
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    Thanks Triggersoft and wh431.

    I have no new information to add, but it is very interesting to meet on this forum.

    Indeed, many queries like this of: three US state which allow foreign attorneys to sit their Bar exam;

    Hawaii, Texas, Colorado are allowing foreign attorneys to sit for their respective bar exams.

    It has to be known that German Law is not base on common law.

    So, I would like to know, dose anyone have an Idea about weather Germans attorneys too, fit for the above exam?

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  9. #8
    triggersoft is offline Registered User
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Equivalency of a german degree to US

    Originally posted by wh431
    Thanks for ur replies. I still am looking for some one with a personal experience of getting into a US MS programm with a german Diplom degree from a FH.

    Try out the "Studienberatung USA" website of the "Fachhochschule Hannover" (I will try to find out the link later if you donīt discover it first, I just have a 33 k modem connection at the moment) - in yesterdayīs "Handelsblatt" (our leading financial newspaper), there wass a very positive article about that website.


    Well there is a lot of confusion at the moement in german educatiomnal system

    Actually, not really. There is not more confusion in the German educational system than in any other countryīs educational system that is in the process of change. I donīt see any problems with the German system so far, since the equivalencies are clear - at least for those who studied the facts...

    and and many ppl dont what is equivalent to what within german educational system like for example there are different types of higher educationl systems like:

    Berufsakademien: Which call themselves University of corporate Education . (Duration 3 years, in form sandwich courses. With half of the study time spent in the sponsoring company or real life projects. So less theoratical in depth)

    Thatīs true, the "Berufsakademien" exist, but only in very few German states, and they are not considered as "Hochschulen", which should be translated as "Universities" to English at its best. The word "Hochschulen" is the level above our "Universität" and our "Fachhochschule". By law, only these two are "Hochschulen", and therefore allowed to issue ACADEMIC DEGREES.

    The "Berufsakademien" are job-oriented, very-short studies, which also end with diplomas, but not with ACADEMIC DEGREES, which you can see e.g. on the duration (Universität: ca. 5 years full-time, Fachhochschule: ca. 4 years full-time, Berufsakademie: 3 years PART-TIME next to your work apprenticeship). There is (almost) no way to enter a Fachhochschule or a Universität with a Berufsakademie diploma.


    Fachochschulen: Which call themselves University of Applied Sciences. ( Duration 4 years. The nature of courses are very much focused on application of Technology in industry. So here the study duration and Semester hours are very the same as in US Bachelors)

    Exact. Only exception: when you do the German "Abitur" (="general UNIVERSITY entrance high school diploma", 13 years of school), and not the "Fachhochschulreife" (=Fachhochschule-entrance-education level, only 12 years of school), you have 1 year more of high school than your fellow US mates. Many (especially the better informed/bigger US universities) waive the "liberal arts" elements for German "Abitur" applicants who learned the liberal arts stuff already in their 13th year of school [a German study program is a ONE-SUBJECT program, like many GB Bachelors, you donīt study any other freely-elected courses from other areas!].

    and Universtitaeten: Which claim to be the only legitimate Universities. (Duration 5-6 Years.

    they donīt CLAIM to be the only legitimate UNIVERSITIES, the ARE (by law). They are the only ones allowed to offer doctoral studies, or the "Habilitation" (Post-PhD thesis to become a tenure track university Professor).


    Courses very much Theory lasted and definitely an overkill for someone wanting to have a "Bachelor level" degree)

    True ;)
    (at least in most subjects, of course not so much in medicine, e.g.



    All of these higher educational institutes award Diplom degrees, so now the question is which "Diplom" we are talking of comparing a standard 4yrs US-Bachelord degree.

    I explained that part already.
    Go to www.daad.de if you want to find out more (also in English)



    The reason is that Distance learning do not exist much in the german speaking countries. So ppl and companies are very much un aware of so called "Fernstudium". And also there are "almost" no private universities in Germany, so since all the Universities are state owned there is no issue of accrediation.

    True, also.
    (mostly; with the new degrees, accreditation will in the next years for the first time become an issue, someday... - but not for the old Diplom programs).


    I agree with u that in terms of employment, one dont stand much chance with a "normal" US/UK/AUS Bachelors degree (unless its from a top notch school).

    But seen from academic point of view a US Bachelors from a RA school is definitely eligible to apply for a Masters programm at a german University/FH.
    I did not speak against that, Iīm totally with you. But, in the end, itīs up to the particular university to decide for or against your application - so you wonīt ever be able to generalise...

    Greets,
    Trigger
    (who studied at a German university, a German Fachhochschule, a Dutch Hogeschool, a US university, and an Australian university - itīs actually all not to hard to understand if you know the specialities)

  10. #9
    triggersoft is offline Registered User
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    found the web site - sorry it seems to be only in German ;(

    http://wwwserv1.rz.fh-hannover.de/usa/

  11. #10
    recruiting is offline Registered User
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    bist du deutsch WH? ich war auf einer fachhochschule in deutschlad. du willst fuer MS gehen? finde eine schule, wahrscheinlich in einer der groesseren staedte, kontaktiere sie. die meisten haben keine aufnahmebedingungen, d.h. dass du nicht einen gewissen zensurenstand brauchst. es ist einfach reinzukommen und es ist billig. vor acht jahren zahlte ich nur 35 DM or 20 US fuer ein semester.
    weitere spezifische fragen, lass es mich wissen

    If you need anything further let me know.......................:D

  12. #11
    wh431 is offline Registered User
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    Na man, ich bin kein Deutscher... wohne zwar momentan im Deutschalnd. Anyway now switching back 2 English, well yes u are right that studying further in germany would have been much cheaper as compared to a US university but i already have one german degree and dont wanna limmit my career prespectives by going for another german postgraduate course.

    Even with in germany having a postgraduate degree from US/UK is seen as something positive as compared to 2-3 consecutive degrees from the local universities.

    WH

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