U of London LLB & LLM grads

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by bo79, Aug 3, 2004.

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  1. bo79

    bo79 New Member

    I am interested in hearing from U of London LLB & LLM grads that live in Canada. What kind of an effect did the UofL law degree have on your career and salary? Non Canadian comments are also welcome.
     
  2. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    This is an interesting question. I doubt my LL.M. will have any career effect at all.

    Here in the U.S., the basic law degree really is the only degree one needs to practice, publish and teach. From what I gather, this is not the case in Canada; Canadian law schools seem to follow the English practice of requiring the LL.M. to teach.

    The Univeristy of London explicitly says that their LL.M. program will be especially interesting to those who desire a career in teaching law.

    My boss's response to my decision to pursue the LL.M. was, "What do you want to do that for?"

    On the other hand, an increasing number of legal scholars in the U.S. do seem to be earning the LL.M. so eventually it may become the standard teaching credential?

    BTW, I wonder whether how the Canadian law school system would view an aspiring teacher with a D/L LL.M.?
     
  3. roysavia

    roysavia New Member

    From my experience and observations, law degrees from Great Britian are well accepted in Canada. One still is required to write the bar exams according to each province's requirements. The salary and career expectations are pretty much similar to those who graduate from Canadian law schools.
     
  4. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    It seems to me that, whether in Canada or in the U.S., an LLM either from a regionally-accredited school (and/or one whose JD is ABA-accredited) would be extremely useful in making a non-ABA-accredited D/L JD-holder a more attractive teaching candidate in even an ABA-accredited JD program.

    (Geez, was that all one sentence?)
     
  5. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Well, we've seen holders of unaccredited Ph.D. degrees get faculty appointments. I suppose it would depend on how badly they wanted you. As a pure guess, I'd say a couple of law journal publications would help a goodish bit.

    Anyway, the University of Alberta doesn't like D/L law degrees...but there's a UoL LL.M. at UBC. Don't know if he did his degree by D/L.
     
  6. mrw142

    mrw142 New Member

    Actually, you've touched upon a loophole for one wanting to practice law (as opposed to teaching law) in the U.S. while completing most of their studies by distance or online.

    Since Brit LLBs are considered an undergrad degree, a person starting from scratch without a bachelor's and wanting to practice law could study almost entirely by distance. How? Take the external LLB from the U of London, which can be finished in 3 or 4 years by distance, then find an LLM program at an ABA-accredited school in the U.S. (this portion would have to be taken on campus). I believe you then would be qualified to sit for any bar exam in the U.S., as I believe their minimum requirements are one year of law study in the U.S. In 4 or 5 years of study--only 8 months of it on campus--you could become an attorney, and you'd beat the people who did it the "right" on-campus way to the end of the rainbow by a few years! True, you wouldn't have a bachelor's, but how relevant is that degree really, after you've entered the practice of law? And for that matter, you'd have 4 or 5--rather than 3--years of specialized study in your chosen profession.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2004
  7. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Yes and no. There is at least ONE lawyer known (by reputation) to me who has done this. You will find, however, that a majority of states require all applicants to hold an ABA J.D. or be admitted to practice in another state and have a few years of practice experience. The ABA has issued an official letter to the various boards of Bar examiners pointing out that an LL.M. is no substitute for a J.D.

    Even the English do not consider an LL.M. to be a substitute for an LL.B.

    Many states also require non-lawyer applicants to show from two to four years of pre law college work.

    Finally, I admit that I have never quite understood the allure of the LL.M. "parlay" approach. After all, the LL.M. will require at least two full time semesters at a generally private (read: expensive) law school. For only two more years, one can dispense with all that undergrad law study AND get a degree good in every state.
     
  8. mrw142

    mrw142 New Member

    Actually, the LLB and the JD are the same degree; I'm not suggesting the LLM as a substitute for the JD. The Brits just don't require undergrad work prior to the study of law. It used to be that way in the U.S--back when the study of law was considered like any other discipline. You went to college and got your Bachelor of Laws (LLB) degree, some schools didn't require another bachelor's. For those wanting to pursue advanced, specialized study, there was the Master of Laws (LLM).

    Some decades ago, those in the legal profession began proposing that theirs was as prestigious a profession as any that required a doctorate, so the Bachelor of Laws began being referred to as a "Juris Doctorate" and undergraduate degrees started becoming a prerequisite for admission to the study of law. This is why the study of law is peculiar in that you receive your "doctorate" prior to your "masters"--I think it's hilarious! I always tell people who try to refer to me as "Doctor ______", that it's ok so long as they realize that my degree is roughly equivalent to a masters, not a PhD.

    Of course, one does need to check into their jurisdiction's requirements prior to doing anything unusual, if they require a certain number of years of undergrad study, then that's that, you must complete it. The LLM is of course never a substitute for the JD or LLB, it's just a one-year specialist degree for tax law, international law, etc. The only reason I suggested the LLM from a U.S. law school would be to meet the one year requirement for study in a U.S. law school, which I believe is a requirement of all jurisdictions. As for expense, there are many state schools offering the LLM, some of them very affordable. The University of Florida--which is very much public--has, I believe, the best LLM program for taxation in the U.S.

    Anyway, thanks for your clarification on some of my points. If there are jurisdictions that require more than one year of U.S. law study or that require non-law undergrad work prior to admission to the bar, then that must be a consideration. However, I do know of those who have taken my suggested approach, and for the right person, right jurisdiction, it can be a real time and money saver. The UoL external program are highly-regarded and almost shockingly affordable.
     
  9. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    I envy you for taking your J.D. at U of A. Tucson is one of my favorite cities and the U of A campus is beautiful.

    I like your desert (Sonoran) better than ours (Chihuahuan), too.
     
  10. mrw142

    mrw142 New Member

    Thanks for the kind words about my alma--I liked the campus also, many fond memories. There was nothing like going to Arizona stadium for a football game on a crisp autumn night, with the lights of Tucson twinkling in the distance and the mountains looming to the West You could go up north into the mountains an hour for skiing or the shade of the forest, or you could go west 15 minutes to see some majestic saguaros--such variety. I miss the food as well, living in Kansas (as I now am) has some advantages, but food and climate certainly do not rank among them!

    Just curious--how do you like the LLM program at the UoL? Are the study guides that they send any help? Have you taken any of the tests yet? And have you heard how the degree is regarded in the profession and academia? The reason I ask is because I've considered it myself. I teach business law at a small university as an adjunct, but would like to take the step up to a FT position, I'm wondering if pursuing the LLM after (or concurrent with) my MBA would be worthwhile.
    Any insight you have would be greatly appreciated.

    Again, thanks for your points in response to my original post, I certainly wouldn't want to mislead anyone into a fruitless journey through 3 years of DL study, only realize that they are back where they started, and to finish need 3 more years of on-campus study to be qualified to sit for the bar rather than one--it's all very state-specific, and of course, people better check with their state bars before diving into a more creative approach.
    Regards!
    Mike
     
  11. adireynolds

    adireynolds New Member

    I'll chime in on the envy here . . . Tucson and south is my favorite area in the U.S., and your desert certainly beats mine (Middle East -- the Empty Quarter)! :D

    Ah, the memories of being at Ft. Huachuca, going hiking in the Saguaro National Park every weekend, or in Ramsey Canyon, the Chiricahuas . . . gorgeous.
     
  12. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    I am set to take the first two subject exams August 2005. I have signed up with Law Tutors Online; the program begins January 2005. In the meantime, I am tackling those subjects (criminology and sentencing and the criminal process) on my own.

    My impressions are that the study guides are somewhat uneven. The Juvenile Juistice guide is almost impossible. It has few chapters and very long, highly duplicative reading lists. The sentencing and crim process guide is a model of clarity and divided into bite sized pieces.

    I would be very slow to pursue the London LL.M. as an academic credential to teach here in the U.S. Your J.D. is the only required degree; advanced degrees in related subjects are more valuable, I think.

    Of course, an American LL.M. is often a degree in "law and..." some related subject like environmental regulation or taxation. If I wanted to teach law in a law school, I' concentrate on getting a few Journal articles published rather than seeking an advanced degree.
     
  13. mrw142

    mrw142 New Member

    Thanks for the info, I just want to teach business law and/or other related business courses at a business dept at some university or, barring that, a small college.

    I harbor no illusions of teaching at a law school. Unless it was something like Nova Southeastern or Thomas Cooley or an unaccredited school, I just don't have the credentials. Top half of the class at a top tier and no bar review is not bad, but I would really need to be top 10% of my class and/or a graduate of a truly top flight school like Harvard or Yale or Columbia or NYU or Berkeley to stand a chance. And that's not even considering my lack of scholarly writing. I'm small university b-school or small college at best, I know where I stand in the scheme of things.

    Thanks again for the advice!

    Mike
     
  14. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Your M.B.A. is probably the best credential you could be pursuing, then.

    Well, there MIGHT be something even MORE useful; a bachelor's degree in engineering or a hard science. Take the patent bar and hey presto! you're a hot property for teaching and practice!
     
  15. mrw142

    mrw142 New Member

    Thanks again!

    Alas, I have no aptitude in the hard sciences, unlike my wife (MS in Pure Math, one class short of ABD), but you're quite right, patent law and intellectual property law a very hot field.
     
  16. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Silk suits and Mercedes convertables!

    As for ME, I decided to make BIG BUCKS in Public Sector Law...you know, like the matchbook cover said?
     

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