Good Morning America asks for help for the next degree mill segment

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by John Bear, May 16, 2001.

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  1. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    People from this forum were tremendously helpful in supplying names and websites or other references of people with fake degrees, for this morning's segment. ABC is already starting to plan the next one, either in June or August.

    They have tentatively chosen Trinity College and University of South Dakota (or wherever they currently are).

    To this end, your help in finding people with those degrees (making sure it isn't the other Trinities in Indiana, Texas, and Ireland), and indeed information on the "university" itself, will be much appreciated, either sent to me ([email protected]) or posted here or both.

    I think it is safe to say they'll be covering the case of the Benton Harbor, Michigan school principal who got her job based on her Trinity Master's, "earned" in less than a week.

    Thank so much.

    John Bear
    [email protected]
     
  2. Doug Powell

    Doug Powell member

    http://www.eugeneingram.com/
     
  3. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member

    On a related note

    Thought the GMA piece informative and entertaining*, but a little worried by the presenter's conclusion that a degree (level not specified) costing $3000 and taking 3 months to earn is necessarily or even likely, bogus.

    A US RA master's can be had for around $4000, Australian master's for even less, and a South African higher degree for the cost of a Big Mac, fries and a Coke.

    All requirements for the award of a US RA bachelor's degree can be earned in less than a month, let alone three months. An MBA can be earned from a university in Scotland (a country with the most rigorous higher education standards in the world) in just seven months.


    TIME
    Where the award of a degree is based on validation of competencies, it is not necessarily helpful to judge worth by time served.

    COST
    However a degree is earned, it is not necessarily helpful to judge its legitimacy on the basis of its price.


    *(This is the first time I have seen John Bear. I did not realize he was only in his forties.)

     
  4. Marc

    Marc member

    Congratulations on your forum!

    I am an occasional lurker from Quebec, my native language is French so please don't be too hard on me for trying to participate in English. I have been an aed lurker for the last 2 years and once received some fine responses there from you guys in the past.

    My question to you is if this television topique on Trinity will actually make sense.

    As I see it from the show's transcripts all featured fake schools until now are actually fake, illegal, or closed down by court order. While Trinity is technically legal in South Dakota and probably aims at remaining technically legal wherever it will be in the future at least this is what I understand from comments.

    Doesn't it make sense to assume that telling the world about the fake nature of Trinity degrees might create legal problems between the television station and the degree holders? Trinity degrees certainly are substandard but the school exists for ten years or more and has not been closed down by any court. I realize that the question is not an issue to Dr. Bear's staff but rather to the station management and therefore off-topic. Still I wonder but not losing my sleep over it. Again I apologize for my English.



    [Note: This message has been edited by Chip]
     
  5. rbourg

    rbourg New Member

    Is it possible that many of the individuals with these "bad school" degrees actually believed that they in fact were completing worthwhile programs or did, in fact, complete significant course work?
    In British Columbia, there have been cases of graduates of Columbia Pacific who were "uncovered" long after that school had been positively reviewed in Bear's guide. Those individuals may have put in legitimate academic work when CPU was considered a good unaccredited school. They were exposed, however,based strictly on the name of the school on their degrees after it had lost its luster. This begs the question of the motivation of the people doing the "exposing".Are they wanting to rid the world of imposters or are they fuelled by baser motives?
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Actually, Lawrie, one would have to go large on the fries and Coke and also order a caramel sunday to equal the South African degrees. [​IMG]

    The reason the South African programs seem so cheap when compared to US tuition fees, is that the SA Rand has about an 8 to 1 exchange rate when compared to the US Dollar.
    For the US student this makes the degrees quite economical. A Potchefstroom master's program is around 3000 US Dollars, with the doctorate being closer to $4000.00. Unisa's tuition is comparable.

    Russell
    Potch Ph.D. Student
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    The case of CPU is quite different. Is it possible that people believed and actually did good work for a CPU unaccredited degree. Sure.

    The case of diploma mills is another story. Unless you are simply deceiving yourself or have a low IQ, there is not much chance you (generic you not you personally) believed that you were getting a genuine degree. Deceived oneself, certainly. Search this site and you will find a link to an example of a Ph.D dissertation from Trinity. I think many of these cases such as the one in ABC's story (which I only read the transcripts from) are more the truth. The guy read "a" book and coupled with his experience deceived himself into believing he had a degree. When pressed he admitted it probably was not worth a degree. We all want things fast and cheap, which really misses the point of an education. I breathed for 8 consecutive years of my adult life does not equal a B.A.

    Bringing this to light serves a couple of purposes. The first is consumer education. This is invaluable. The second is that it is consumer protection. Should we be relying
    on the expertise of individuals with diploma mill credentials who slipped by?

    I agree with Bear. The reality of these situations is that people got degree mill credentials in order to scam someone. The other reality is that there are many HR departments who do not exercise diligence in screening these things.

    North

     
  8. Tom Head

    Tom Head New Member

    All of the relevant GMA segments so far have dealt with Columbia State University, an illegal diploma mill shut down by the FBI in 1998. To say that someone could have possibly done work at Columbia State is like saying that someone wrote a dissertation for his Universal Life Church Doctor of Divinity.

    There's probably about as much difference between Columbia State and Columbia Pacific as there is between Columbia Pacific and Harvard.

    Peace,

    ------------------
    Tom Head
    www.tomhead.net
     
  9. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member

    Interesting and imaginative theory, Russell. Then with an exchange rate of 123 Yen to the dollar, how much more of a bargain must a Japanese degree be? Or better yet, one from a university in Italy where the greenback will net you 2188 Lire?

    [​IMG]

    Yes, the Potch MA in Public Management and Governance costs $2000 total, over two years. This includes all study materials which seem to comprise books, CDRom, VHS tapes and/or DVDs. I've been in contact with the wonderfully named Suanita Van Zyl about this program and hope one day I might receive an application form (the TLS application submitted online never did elicit a response).

    How is it coming along there at Potch, Russell? And if I may ask, how long did it take you to negotiate admission, have proposal accepted, and so on?
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    After submission of all documentation, transcripts, etc., admission was negotiated in 6-8 weeks. The research proposal took about six months, which included two revisions and being approved by both GST and PUCHE promoters. It also had to be approved by the academic board of GST, and the faculty of theology at Potch.

    Once the research proposal is approved the student is given three years to write and complete the thesis (80,000 words).

    In regard to my imaginative theory of tuition costs, the Big Mac, fries & Coke combo is quite reasonable in South Africa as well. [​IMG]

    Russell
     
  11. Caballero Lacaye

    Caballero Lacaye New Member


    Hello, there!

    I don't really understand why Russell's assertion has to be imaginative. As a matter of fact, I know some universities in Latin America where the cost is U$5.00 per month, and I really mean US$5.00 dollars per month, for domestic students.

    Lawrie mentions high exchange rates for US dollars. Well, when Nicaragua was suffering from hyperinflation during the contra war, the price for $1.00 was C1,000,000, meaning that the price for one dollar was one million córdobas.

    I hope this helps.

    Best wishes,


    Karlos Alberto Lacaye
    [email protected]
     
  12. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    My favorite moments of the GMA segment;

    1) The "Love Doctor" denying she calls herself a doctor, then Greg Hunter interjects "Well...you do", and shows supporting evidence. The Love Doctor's response; "Oh, I do"?

    2) The Love Doctor repeatedly asking Greg Hunter in that whiny voice, "Do you think I'm a phony"? No Ruth, I don't think you're a phony, I KNOW you're a phony.

    3) The Cleary College instructor who vehemently defends both his Master's & Ph.D. being awarded in 7 months. "I submitted both a thesis and a dissertation". Both in 7 months? You gotta be kidding me.

    4) The court administrator (Andrew Vesloski Jr.) being grilled by Greg Hunter. Andrew: "I have over 700 classroom hours from the Federal Government" Greg: "But that's not a college degree" Andrew: "I was a senior administrator" Greg: "But that's not a college degree". After a few more "But that's not a college degree"(s), Andrew eventually sort-of accepted blame. "If you want to split hairs, then you're absolutely right". Split hairs? He bought a fake degree, got caught, and now wants to play semantics. Who is splitting hairs?

    I will say that I was very pleased that GMA made it clear that there *are* legitimate distance education programs available online.

    BTW, Is it me, or did Diane Sawyer seem either *very* uncomfortable and/or unprepared talking about this subject?

    Bruce
     
  13. uxu

    uxu New Member

    Anyone need a TC&U 'certified' body guard/samurai? http://www.samurai-warrior.com/resume/resume/Australia/australia4131.html

    MCSE + a couple TC&U's http://www.levingstonconsulting.com/Resume.htm

    Another MCSE computer d00d - TC&U grad 'with honors' http://www.sellars-family.com/RESUME.HTM

    'Masters' in Science...? Wierd site http://r_o_b_43.tripod.com/rob/resume.html

    Yet another IT person http://www.bearman.com/jhome/Resume/resume.htm

    Another strange one - a BS from TC&U.. 'pusuring several degrees - lacks thesis for each...? http://www.nac4you.com/CV.htm

    Senior Management Executive http://www.executiveportfolio.com/larrygstolte/p_resume.html

    A speaker at a conference... I wish I had all these initials after my name.... Patricia A. Wengren, Ph.D., NM-LADAC, MAC, CCBT, DVCe, CCCJS, RAS
    "Dr." Patricia Wengren earned her Bachelor of Science in Psychology (1989), Master of Science in Counseling (1992) and Ph.D. with Distinction in Psychology (1999) from Trinity College and University of South Dakota. http://www.nationalafc.com/conf2000.htm

    That's all for now, please join us later for another installment of:
    Don't post you questionalble 'degree' on the internet for anyone with a search engine and 5 minutes to find.

    -----------------------------------------
    "It is easier to fight for one's principles than live up to them."
    --Alfred Adler
     
  14. Dear Reader:

    let me congratulate John and others for exposing those "kinky heads" with fake diplomas - I am referring to the GMA report.

    Would you consider Colimbia Pacific University a DIPLOMA MILL?

    Also, I would suggest that a documentary be done on schools such as WALDEN and SARSOTA which institutions were publicly referred to (including documentation) as DIPLOMA MILLS before they gained regional accreditation.

    There is a lesson Here!!

    Also, do you have any information on Ross University in the Caribbean. My wife is interested in applying to study Medicine. In fact her Gynecologist in Oregon is a gradaute of Ross in Dominica. What do you think?
     
  15. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member

    It is imaginative because Russell held that the high exchange rate per unit of currency (8 Rand = 1 US dollar) WAS THE REASON the South African degrees were cheap. To quote Russell:

    "The reason the South African programs seem so cheap when compared to US tuition fees, is that the SA Rand has about an 8 to 1 exchange rate when compared to the US Dollar. For the US student this makes the degrees quite economical."


    An exchange rate PER UNIT CURRENCY in and of itself, tells us nothing about true costs to a foreign party, even if that currency had previously had a more favorable exchange rate. Obviously, the unit of currency is arbitrary. If the unit of US currency were the cent, rather than the dollar, the rate against the Rand would be 1 Rand = 12.5 US cents (which indeed it is approximately). Would this make one iota of difference to the cost of a South African program? No. To highlight the imaginative nature of the logic, I offered the example of the Japanese Yen and the Italian Lira, which have exchange rates of 123 and 2188, for one US dollar, respectively. Are Japanese and Italian degrees inexpensive because of the exchange rates? They should be if we follow Russell's stated reasoning. Are other goods and services in these countries inexpensive? Try buying a cup of coffee at a restaurant in Tokyo or Venice. If the reason the South African programs seem so cheap is the exchange rate, as Russell unambiguously asserts, then we need only look at exchange rates alone to estimate the relative costs of goods and services, country to country. Clearly, that is demonstrably bogus.

    If Russell (and you) mean something else, the relative movement in exchange rates for instance, then this too tells us little unless internal inflation is taken into account. Exchange rates per unit currency tell us nothing about the costs of indigenous goods and services within another country.
    Yes, and if the price per unit of labor were $1 = C100, before hyperinflation, and $1 = C100,000,000, after hyperinflation, then the price per unit of labor remained constant relative to the dollar. The point is that the exchange rate per unit of currency tells us nothing about the costs of indigenous goods and services.
     
  16. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Actually, the exchange rate isn't the issue. But changes to the exchange rate are. Eight to one isn't significant, unless that changed to 4 to 1, for example, doubling the cost for people paying with dollars. Or 16 to one, cutting the cost in half.

    If the South African Rand suddenly changed to where one "new Rand" was exchanged for 10 "old Rands," it would all wash out the same for those using dollars (or Rands, for that matter). Instead of one dollar for every eight Rands it would be $1.25 for every "new Rand." But those dollars would still buy the same thing.

    This happened in Mexico when the government changed from the old peso to the new peso. The new peso was suddenly worth 100 old pesos. Dollars bought a proportionally smaller number of the new pesos, but the same value in goods and services.

    Rich Douglas

    Waitress: "Do you want your pizza cut into 6 or 8 slices?"

    Yogi Berra: "Better make it 8; I'm hungry."
     
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Thanks, Lawrie, for the dissertation on currency exchange rates, and their relationship to indigenous goods and services. [​IMG]

    My statement in regard to the SA Rand vs. the US Dollar was not intended to imply that this was the SOLE reason the SA programs cost less than US programs. Actually, the SA programs are only slightly less than many Australian programs.

    Russell
     
  18. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member

    I'm not getting on your back, Russell. It was an aside blown out of all proportion by that cigar smoking revolutionary and instigator, Caballero Lacaye, known worldwide as the Che Guevara of distance learning. Yes, it's all his fault. Blame him, not me.

    Could I have a green salad and coffee instead of fries and Coke?
     
  19. Scott W. Metcalf

    Scott W. Metcalf New Member

    I saw the segment yesterday morning--the only one I even felt close to sorry for was Andrew Wesoloski (even though he's from Reading PA originally, I don't know him). He looked like someone who picked up on CPU as a means to an end--if he really believed that it was a legitmate way to attain his goals, it doesn't say much for him at all. All this really shows that one has to be careful in their selection of schools.

    And yes, it did look like Diane Sawyer was very uncomfortable at the end of the segment. Maybe she was feeling bad about these folks being outed, or maybe she was listening to a ticking time bomb somewhere...

    who knows?

    Scott
     
  20. drwetsch

    drwetsch New Member

    Just today our HR Dept. slipped me a resume for a job candidate. The candidate's degree was from "Trinity College & University", a recent graduate of May 2001. I informed HR of the bogus degree status and the resume was plucked from the candidate pool.

    John
     

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