DL Law study

Information on DL Law study is sincerely appreciated.
Thank you for your input.

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In the United States, virtually all states demand an ABA accredited law degree for admission to the bar. The ABA refuses to accredit distance education law schools.

The one major exception is California. If you are contemplating admission to the California bar, there are a number of DL law schools to choose from.

Unfortunately, pretty much all of them have terrible bar-exam pass rates. What's more, none of them are regionally accredited. (One has DETC accreditation.)

My non-expert advice is that if you are planning to practice law, attend an accredited on-campus program. But if you just want to learn about the law for your own personal interest, or to give you background in a different career like business, then one of the California distance law schools may be of more value to you.

 

Both California and New York have admitted graduates of foriegn law schools, even those that did distance learning, after they got a 1 year LLM from a school whose first degree is ABA accredited (the ABA does not accredit graduate law programs, only undergraduate [the first degree is an undergraduate law degree-despite the title JD-that's why the second degree is a masters). University of London is probably the best known DL school through which the first degree can be done.

 

In addition to the comments made by other folks here, I seem to remember hearing something about Massachusetts possibly letting Kaplan College graduates take the Bar exam. Has anyone else heard any rumors along these lines, or am I dreaming?


Peace,

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Tom Head
co-author, Get Your IT Degree and Get Ahead (Osborne/McGraw-Hill)

 

There is not a simple answer, which is why we spend nine pages on distance law degrees in Bears' Guide.We now list sixteen states where non-aba-approved law degree holders may be eligible to take the bar, eight where people who have studied law by apprenticeship may take it, 23 where a foreign law graduate may take the bar, and nine where a person with an unaccredited JD and an ABA-approved LL.M. may petition to take the bar.

The annual Comprehensive Guide to Bar Admission Requirements is sold for $12.50 by the ABA, (800) 285-2221.

John Bear www.degree.net

 

Massachusetts does allow non-ABA school graduates to sit for the bar exam, though the school must be approved by the state (no mean feat). We have 2 non-ABA schools, but both are 100% residential;

Massachusetts School of Law: http://www.msl.edu
Southern New England School of Law: http://www.snesl.edu

As for Kaplan, if they were to be approved by the state, then I guess graduates could sit for the Bar exam, but I can't see the state approving a DL Law program.

Bruce

 

Ooops...Mass School of Law should be http://www.mslaw.edu

Bruce

 

I placed a posting here not long ago about the London Institute of Legal Education. I submit that no matter what program of distance learning law study that you wish to pursue, the educational experience would be of great value.

I am earning a degree of a British University and have confirmed that several New York LLM programs will accept students on a case by case basis for LLM's geared toward foreign law graduates.

Two programs have indicated that they will begin considering students in the second year of my program for admission to start an LLM as a concurrent degree as long as my LLB is conferred before an LLM is completed.

 

And I replied to that posting about the London Institute of Legal Education, pointing out that, according to this entity's poorly-written website, it does not actually provide degree programs. It appears to only offer third-party tutoring.

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Kristin Evenson Hirst
DistanceLearn.About.com

 

And so what? No one has critisized the degree itself (I dare say that only the top tier of US schools can lay a claim to possibly having a more prestigious law degree than UofL). Some have critisized distance ed law study since you get no one to answer questions, classmates to study with and lectures to attend. If LIoLE where giving the degree, it would be nothing special. All they are doing is acting as a study aid to students in the program and providing some of the things missing from distance legal education*. This is actually pretty typical with the UofL external program--there are numerous schools around the world giving "tuition" for the London exams.

While I have nothing for or against LIoLE or Semple Piggot Rochez, it seems that your critisism is just a [somewhat parochial] argument that they don't provide the degee. So what? I'd rather have the London degree anyway.

-me

* as I note in another thread (on HW MBA) the London LLB does not qualify one to practice law in the UK. It fulfils the Academic phase, but in order to be admitted to practice on the UK there are some practical experience requirements. Since US law schools [theoretically] have this practical component in the curriculum, a license to practice in the US can generally be acquired as soon as one graduates and passes the bar. The fact that some states will allow a foreign LLB to be admitted without the practical experience requirement is somewhat because of this mismatch [and also because, unlike the CPA in most states, the bar admission requirements are much too light on practical experience]. Anecdotablly I have heard that some states will consider allowing foreign LLBs to practice, but only if they have already been admitted to practice in the foriegn jurisdiction.

 

I think Kristin's point -- and I agree with her -- is that the Institute is being praised as the greatest thing since sliced cheese when, in actuality, it is merely one among many optional correspondence tutoring agencies available for people who plan to take on an LL.B. through the University of London External Programme. Which is not to say it's not a top-notch program -- it is -- but it's not the Institute's program; it's the University of London's program.


Peace,

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Tom Head
co-author, Get Your IT Degree and Get Ahead (Osborne/McGraw-Hill)

 

Thanks, Tom. Yes, that's my point -- I intended no criticism of the University of London External Programme. I was put off by the promotion of LILE as if it were part of or an agent for U of L, when as far as I can see it is a third-party program with little to recommend it.

If it presented itself honestly as a third-party aid to study and provided more information on instructors, study materials and methods, as well as more information about the few states that will allow students with distance learning law degrees to take the bar exam, I'd be less concerned. But why would a New York-based entity name itself the **London** Institute of Legal Education unless it meant to create confusion and borrow some of the U of L's prestige? Why the domain name "BecomeALawyer.com" unless to imply that they provide a fast track to law practice?


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Kristin Evenson Hirst
DistanceLearn.About.com

 

Because that's who you get your degree from?!! They clearly state on the application form that you have to apply to London separately, and that they will refund your money if you forward a letter from UofL that you where rejected.

Well, in NY they are an alternative to spendign 4 years and one summer at Fordham. This is especially true for those without a bachelor's degree. It might also be good for those who wish to practice in the EU or even better for the large expat British community in NY (who would rather have a UofL degree if they plan on ever returning). I would probably agree it's not the best alternative for a New Yorker--the one advantage of the UofL model is that even if you travel often you can get your degree--I'd go for Semple myself in this regard.

 

I thought I read at the DETC website, it did not accredit that institution's JD program.

Of course, one could move to the few states that still permit apprenticeships to a lawyer or jurist.

 

DETC does not yet have the authority to accredit the JD degree. They did so under a "pilot program" that they intend to use to show the appropriate authorities that they have the experience and expertise to grant such degrees.

There was a very long thread on AED about a year ago in which the usefullness of accreditation beyond the accreditor's scope was discussed.

Scott

 

I meant "accredit" not "grant". Sorry

Scott

 

The starting place for any discussion like this is, "What do you need the degree for?"

If the goal is to have a degree that gives you maximum flexibility as to where you take a bar exam and practice law, then an ABA-accredited law school is the best way to go. Unfortunately it also is the most expensive. The good news is that applications have levelled off to a point where most people can find a way to get admitted to an ABA-accredited law school.

But there are many reasons for pursuing legal training that may make a state-accredited residential law school (like Mass. School of Law or one of the many Calif. schools), a distance-learning law school in the U.S., or a distance-learning foreign law school a viable option.

Others have aptly described the pros and cons of the U. London option vis a vis practicing law in the U.S. I actually think the London *LL.M.* is a hidden jewel for American attorneys who want some grounding in U.K. and E.U. law. But I'm less enamored of the London LL.B. as a route for practicing in the U.S., especially in view of the fact that students gain little exposure to the complexities of U.S. law through that program.

Also remember that taking a bar exam and getting admitted to practice are only the starting points. Becoming a proficient attorney and finding gainful employment are separate matters. Back-door options may be more problematic in those aspects. And personally I shudder at the thought of a lawyer who successfully navigates the back-door route, gets admitted to a state bar, and then hangs out a shingle as a solo practitioner. That lawyer has little grounding in American law and may not know many or any attorneys to whom s/he can reach out for advice on how to handle cases. It's a recipe for a legal malpractice lawsuit.


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David Yamada, [email protected]

 

I didn't realize that admissions to ABA schools have dropped. Seems like most schools I've written to tell me that they get a ton of applicants.

Does anyone know what's the difference between a law school that is accredited by the State Bar Examiners (in this case, CA) vs that of ABA? What are the limitations of going to a school accredited by the State Bar of CA vs ABA? Can you still practice law in another state?

 

A JD awarded by a law school approved by the ABA allows the graduate to sit for the bar examination in every state. An LLM awarded by a law school approved by the ABA allows the graduate to sit for the bar examination in many, but not all, states.

A JD awarded by a school accredited by the California Committee of Bar Examiners allows graduates to sit for the California Bar Examination. As a general rule, these students are exempt for the California Baby Bar Exam. Some CBE accredited schools have also qualified students to sit for examinations in a few other states.

All things being equal, go with an ABA school.

 

I recently completed my second year of correspondence law study through British-American University. My impression is very favorable. There is full disclosure that they are not accredited. Video lectures (from a bar review program) are used to supplement the reading assignments and audio tapes. I find them very helpful. There are also discussion boards, and the option of attending live review courses for the Baby Bar and Bar exams, and "revision courses" in Cambridge.

I attended a live review for the Baby Bar after my first year, and passed it with a grade of B on my first try, followed by passing the MPRE. Many of my virtual classmates did not fare as well.

I've attended a couple seminars with students from ABA schools, and was able to "hold my own" during discussions.

Realistically, I think I have a very good chance of passing the California Bar exam.

Correspondence law study requires considerable self discipline. It is very easy to fall behind in your studies. The only mandatory communication with the school is in the form of mid-term and final exams. Help is available by e-mail and telephone whenever you need it, but no one is going to call each week to see if you are up to date in your assignments.

Of course, an ABA program is preferred. But for many of us, this is impossible. As long as you realize that the degree itself probably has little value, and that you will likely be permitt to sit only for the California Bar, correspondence law study can be a wonderful opportunity.

Christopher