Over the last few days, DL has been bashed indiscriminately in the name of rigor, whatever that means. In case some people have forgotten, most people choose DL because of some of the reasons that are outlined below. I attended a DL workshop earlier this week and one of the participants (Dr. T Chiang, PhD - USC) listed the following as some of the reasons for choosing DL path over B&M: 1. Enhance knowledge for current job 2. Fulfill job requirement 3. Validate job experience 4. Prepare for career change 5. Flexibility in time (it is not affected by busy schedule) 6. Less interruption and less intrusive on life style 7. Low cost of learning (Earn full salary while in school and do not have to relocate)
I have stayed away from the rigor discussions, becuase it seems a bit strange where the conversation has gone. I have gone DL (availability added to your list), and there has never been an issue of rigor. THE METHOD OF LEARNING DOES NOT MAKE THE DIFFERENCE, other aspects do, such as accreditation, etc.
For me the main factors have been: 1. Speed - almost no semester breaks at my particular distance school(TESC). 2. No minimum # of credits required to be earned at the school(TESC) in order to graduate. I work at a private(expensive) B&M university and took classes (free for employees) there for a year and did well... but I'd like to change my career path soon which will mean leaving this job, and the ability to take free classes. Transfering to another B&M school would mean having to take a minimum amount of credits at the new school which would suck since I have 112 or so credits right now...
Ike, I am not shy about seeking help when needed. I didn't want to sit in class for all the hours when I didn't need help or guidance. Too often class lectures are just that. No amplification of the material and no or limited experiential enlightening from the professor. As I approach 50 my experience and cognition helps with my ability to assimilate and grasp concepts, it also makes me less tolerant of the antics of folks who are holding a seat in class but are not adding value to the learning environment. Another reason for returning to school was to set the example for my children. My schedule makes it almost impossible to attend on-ground classes and even if it did, my current program of interest does not exist in the local universities. Therefore, DL became the option most fitting. Add to the above that I work in technology and the attraction to use it for education became doable. In fact, would we be having this discussion if not for technology and the educational issues that present themselves. One of the federal projects that I support is related to providing DL to remote areas, what better way to make informed decisions than to participate in the environment. Lastly, DL has removed my last excuses for not continuing my education. Thanks for starting the topic... P.S. any word on your interview?
DL RULES!!!!!!!!!! My choice of DL is because 1) It meets my needs. 2) It meets my needs. 3) It meets my needs. (as more specifically enumerated in nos. 3 - 7 in the original post) As an active DL student, I can CHOOSE my own level of rigor by either being very diligent, studying hard doing the homework assignments and really learning the subject matter thoroughly and earning straight A s. As I have. (Applause, bows and thank you!) Or I cruise and party and be satisfied with Cs like my nephew who is a student at Tulane University. Where, how matters far less than WHO. It's all in what you do with it.
...and as GUNSMOKE says, "it meets my needs". I'd also add in: 8. Suits my style of learning Cheers, Mark
I guess that you are referring to interviews for college teaching positions that I attended this year. If that’s what you meant, I will say that things have been wonderful for me so far. Two offers have been made this year and I expect at least one more before the end of July. Since I completed my PhD in the middle of 2003, I have had four offers altogether. After I received my PhD last year, I applied for about 12 open positions, 8 of the colleges had phone interviews with me, 4 invited me for in-person interview and 2 colleges offered me the job. The two colleges that offered me fulltime teaching position last year were Springfield College (MA) and Central Maine Community College (ME). I decided not to accept these positions for personal reasons. This year, I sent out about 20 applications, about 10 colleges interviewed me over the phone, 6 invited me for in-person interview, and 2 offered fulltime teaching position to me. Overall, I am not doing badly. As a matter of fact, one of the positions was just offered yesterday. I also teach as an adjunct professor for the following colleges: 1. Kean University of New Jersey (a B&M 2nd tier public university) 2. American InterContinental University Online 3. DeVry University (Keller) Online In addition, I currently work fulltime as a network security architect at Federal Government facility but I will certainly make a transition in August or September. Note: I will not reveal the names of the school that have offered me fulltime academic position this year. You know, this is the Internet and anything can happen.
IMHO, those who bash DL are incapable of understanding simple logic. Perhaps it is because they are envious, that the DL learner rarely, if ever, had to actually go to class. If anything, they can stake a claim to having experienced "college" first hand, with all the fraternities and partying, late night cramming, etc. Sorry, but I have no need for that as I stare down 40 .... But that doesn't make me or my degree inferior. I offer the following observations: 1) An MBA from Duke is an MBA from Duke. Regardless of how it was earned (B&M vs DL). There is no logic in the world that will convince me that somehow one is inferior to the other, irrespective of the fact that both the B&M and DL versions of the MBA program use the same instructors, the same textbooks/materials, and the same entry/exit qualifications. One could actually make an argument that a DL degree, completed by an adult learner, is in many ways superior to the same degree completed by a younger B&M graduate. Why? When you are younger, you cram, you test, you forget. Most of the college grads that I hire as entry level computer programmers don't know their head from their arse (and I hire from some pretty damn good engineering schools). But that's ok - I know what I am hiring. I expect that 90% of new hires will need a few years to reach an acceptable level of performance. When you are older, and you have "done" it, you are drawing from life lessons - not from short-term memory. Reinforcing "life lessons" has a more lasting effect. For example: I recently studied for and took the CLEP examinations on Micro and Macro-economics. Yes, I studied my ass off for them. However, the material was easy for me to digest and understand. Why? Because I have worked in the economy for 20 years. I have had to make financial business decisions, manage to an operating budget, and made strategic decisions based on the market. Rewind to the 18 year old cramming for the same subjects in a B&M college. The vast majority of them simply have "no context" to what they are studying. Their entire experience with the "economy" is based on beer prices. Ok, I'm rambling ... next point. 2) The bad rap that DL had in the past was primarily due to the quality/caliber of the schools offering DL degrees. Degree mills have not helped this perception. The trend of big institutions offering DL degrees, however, is helping to repair the damage. Northwestern/Kellogg is now offering distance programs, as are most SEC, Big-10, etc. schools. They realize that they have to be competitive in order to attract more students - education is a business - and a big one at that. 3) A degree from TESC is still a degree from TESC, regardless of the method of learning. And guess what, that degree from TESC is still wholly inferior to a degree in the same discipline from Northwestern, or Yale. This is a trap that a lot of DL bashers fall into. They somehow think that the "distance" aspect of the degree makes it inferior. IMHO, it does not. Like always, the school makes or breaks the degree. 4) DL programs are not for everyone. Likewise, neither are B&M institutions. I do not have the patience in my middle age to sit in a classroom all week (not to mention the time). Likewise, when I was 20, I did not have the maturity or learned experiences to allow me to do a DL degree (aside from the fact that they didn't really exist in any substantial numbers back then). 5) Also, keep in mind traditional adult learning theory. Adults learn by doing, kids learn by observing. Relate this to point #4 above. This December (hopefully), when I complete my BSBA from TESC, I will take great pride in knowing that I accomplished it on my own, in just over one year. It is a 4 year degree from an accredited school. I could give a rat's ass as to what someone else thinks about it. Yes, the school is a no-name institution. But then again, so are most schools. There are more valid, yet obscure colleges out there than I have hairs on my head (which is fortunate for me - I may escape balding yet!) To reiterate: in this day and age of the "maturing distance degree", the school still makes or breaks the degree - not the method of learning. Just my 2 cents ... Cheers.
Lets face it, DL has come a long way in just the past 5 years. I think a lot of DL U's and C's are on par with some of the B&M learning institutions. While they may not be Harvard, Stanford, or USC, how many people really go there anyway. Another good thing about DL. Like so many silicon valley working whores, I clock in between 50-60 hours a week. That, plus commute, raising kids, sustaining a household, etc, leave me exactly 1 hour before bedtime. With DL's, I can clock in at midnight and still accomplish a bit before I have to go to work again. That, and not having to put up with snot nose 22 year old know it all at the B&M college (you know the type anyone over 40, the ones that know it all like we did 20 years ago - lol). As far as the stigma of a DL college, I don't see it. Most HR reps don't know the difference unless you went to a known degree mill or on the other side of the spectrum Stanford or Harvard.
Unixman - I'm guessing that you have not read the recent threads regarding the rigor of DL programs. If you had you would know two things. 1) No one was "bashing." It is possible to offer criticism without disdain. 2) Everyone who offered an opinion is currently or has been closely involved in DL and so this is not some turf issue where someone is trying to say, "DL sucks!" Rather, it's people talking about how it may be possible to improve DL degree programs or the perception of DL degree programs. Jack
I took my A.A.S. in electronics engineering technology by D/L and I am now sweating through my Master of Law by D/L. My B.A. and J.D. are B&M. On the whole, I'd say that I prefer B&M. Attending classes gives me a sense of being part of a learning community. There's support there, both emotional and educational. Also, attending classes imposes a study discipline that in D/L must come from the student himself. However, in my case, there IS NO B&M Master of Laws program within 2,000 miles in my subject. D/L is the only practical way I can pursue my degree. It isn't a choice between a B&M degree and a D/L degree; it is a choice between a D/L degree and NO degree!
I'm doing the DL route because I don't have the time to go to a class room, and I can study at my own pace. I don't have to worry about the semester ending! Rich Hartel
You guessed correctly. I just keep seeing and hearing that phrase, "DL Bashing", so my post above was more knee-jerk and off-the-cuff than anything else. Cheers.
Ike - I chose DL because I wanted to prepare for a career change - and it was the only route available to me. Overall, it worked - although a DL degree in my field has some limitations. As for "bashed indiscriminately", I don't think so - it certainly wasn't the intent. Regards - Andy
My main reasons were/are: 1. Flexibility in course selection and degree plan (Excelsior College) 2. Flexibility in time (studying) 3. Cost factor 4. No more butt falling asleep on those hard pastic chairs for 2-3 hours a class 5. Preparation for career change 6. Work at my own pace without worrying about immediate dealines
Re: Re: Reasons for Choosing the DL Path Andy, I don't think you were bashing at all as that implies some sort of destructive intent. I believe you are honestly trying to raise discourse that might put a bee in someone's bonnet so that certain programs can be improved. I think the problem arises because there are so many excellent DL programs. In my field there are Columbia, UMass, USC, etc. Of course while you didn't mention names, from my point of view schools such as UoP, NCU, NSU, UMUC, Argosy, Capella need to do something to improve their academic images. I think what you have suggested is a good first step. Of course as an informed customer, neither of these schools will receive a dime from me. I will look for DL opportunies elsewhere.
Re: Re: Reasons for Choosing the DL Path Hi Andy, I am sorry if I seemed somewhat goaded in the past couple of days. I reacted the way I did because I felt that people are beginning to forget why many folks choose the DL path. I did not choose Nova Southeastern University because of rigor or lack thereof. School of Computer and Information Sciences (SCIS) is in fact as rigorous as it can be but there are certainly areas that need improvements. I have taught undergraduate and graduate courses at two B&M colleges in New Jersey. In fact, I have been teaching at one of these colleges, a second-tier public university, for more than four years and based on what I know, I would say that every school has some quality issues to address. It’s perception rather that poor quality that is hurting DL for the most part. I also teach online courses for two colleges and I would not hesitate to say that some of my online students are better than some of my in-class students. Some of the students that are calling for rigor here don’t even know what constitutes a rigorous program. Several false statements regarding quality have been made about NSU here and elsewhere. These statements are not only false but are also overarching. Whereas I have issues with Wayne Huizinga Business School’s 12 months online MBA program, there is not doubt in mind that many NSU programs, especial all professional programs that require licensure, are as rigorous as they can be. Four years ago, Nova Law School had the highest Bar examination pass rate in the state of Florida. I don’t know whether Florida State University (FSU) has a law school then or not, but the performance of FSU law graduates was way behind that of Nova law graduates. If all NSU programs lack rigor as some people have suggested on this forum, how come neither the professional bodies that responsible for program accreditation nor the State of Florida has complained about lawyers, medical doctors, psychologists, pharmacists, dentists, optometrists, audiologists, and nurses that received their degrees from Nova Southeastern University. Yes, Nova will graduate its first nursing graduates this year. Finally, I have to restate that I chose Nova because of all of the reasons that I elicited in this thread. Certainly DL schools, including Nova, have to continue to address quality issues if they intend to achieve respectability. Many B&M colleges also have some quality issues to address. I have to caution that we shouldn’t jettison a dirty bathtub with a toddler therein. Again, I honestly believe that it’s perception primarily rather that poor quality that is hurting DL.
Re: Re: Re: Reasons for Choosing the DL Path Perhaps not, but some do. I've examined over a hundred different Computer Science graduate schools and there is no doubt that NSU is the poster child for academic incest. Amongst the fulltime faculty, 50% of the professors are graduates of NSU. This is even higher among the adjuncts. As for the coursework, while I applaud their attempt to introduce breadth into a PhD program it leaves me nervous since this stands in stark, stark contrast to other institutions. Also, I've noticed very few publications amongst the faculty in comparison to other institutions. If the faculty is not on the edge of their field what does that say about their students? There is not some nebulus bias against distance learning schools that affects the CISE department, they've earned their reputation. The delivery aspects of the NSU DL degree in CS is to be commended. They are the only game in town when it comes to PhD programs in Computer Science where fulltime residence is not required for at least one semester. They have a lot going for them except as you say their academic image. As a graduate of the program, the prestige of your degree can only be helped by an improvement in that image. It amazes me that you would react so negatively to meaningful discussion about improving the image of DL programs. Which false statements are those? I don't think anyone has been discussing NSU specifically have they? Lovely, but I'm not looking for a degree in one of those fields. The academic performance of these departments does nothing to bolster the image of the CISE department. I haven't examined these departments, but I wonder what the percentage of NSU graduates are members of the faculty? That is what we are talking about, but your sensitivy has led you on a campaign of knee-jerk reactions. Please, chill out.
