MBA via non-traditional entry

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Newbie2DL, Jun 18, 2004.

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  1. Newbie2DL

    Newbie2DL Member

    Hello All,

    I know about the HW/EBS MBA that is possible without a bachelors, and am interested in gaining certificates/diploma along the way as a means of matriculating for an MBA.

    Are there any other decent MBA programs out there where one may not have a bachelors, but can embark on an MBA by doing a diploma or something of the sort?

    Thanks All !
     
  2. Newbie2DL

    Newbie2DL Member

    someone...

    have any ideas?
     
  3. Han

    Han New Member

    Without any bachelor's? I don't know of any. Just curious, how can you take advanced level classes, without the foundation concepts? You may be able to test out on them, then move on, but I would think a school would want you to have that knowledge before going into the master's.
     
  4. gildeer7

    gildeer7 New Member

    I did a lot of searching when I was looking at MBA programs. HW was the only one that I saw that did not require a bachelor's.
     
  5. edowave

    edowave Active Member

    I ran across a couple when searching for an MBA program. I can't recall who they were, but they usually required either a lot of work experience, or you have to take some "articulation" courses before you were formally accepted. All required GMAT or GRE.

    If you read most grad school catalogs, they usually say you are allowed to take 6 or 9 credits as a "non-degree" student, then apply for formal admission. If you can prove you can do well in these courses, I don't see why they wouldn't admit you, even without a BA or BS.
     
  6. Floyd_Pepper

    Floyd_Pepper New Member

  7. Professor Kennedy

    Professor Kennedy New Member

    I thought I might clarify some of the implicit comments made so far as if 'without a bachelors' was the equivalent of 'without the ability' or, worse, 'without the right'.

    EBS was the Esmee Fairbairn Research Centre before it was transformed into the Graduate School of Business at Heriot-Watt University. Its research focus was on how managers learn and what they need to learn to reach MBA standard, the latter based on a detailed study of the then MBA programmes in North America and Europe, and from running top level Executive Programmes.

    The age and experience profile of the beneficaries from management education were post-25 years old and at least 5 years experience. Most of them would have bachelor's degrees. But we found a significant number (about 15 per cent) who fitted the age and job profiles who for one reason or another did not have any previous post-school education, or if they did it was of the HND standard in the UK.

    Before dismissing them by fiat (while concentrating on the traditional post-bachelor 85 per cent) we judged that those in the group who were able enough (judged in the studies by their job profiles, which were the same as the post-graduate group, i.e, their employers judged them good enough to hold their jobs) should be allowed to demonstrate their abilities to complete the programme 'without a bachelor's degree'.

    The best test we could devise was the obvious one: require them to pass the same exams as if they were in the larger group! Indeed, that is what institutions that require bachelors degree in effect do, except they send them back to four or seven years bachelor school. EBS requires them to sit the same exams as the MBA students who have bachelor degrees.

    If they can pass three MBA classes they may continue with their classes until they pass the nine and are awarded their MBA. No concessions are given to this non-bachelor's group - it's pass or perish.

    I can think of absolutely no sensible argument against our proposition. Can you? The sole test is a measure of output and not a measure of input. A manager from a non-business specialism, with a bachelor's in that specialism, has not covered the fundamentals of business either.

    Result: about 14 per cent of our DL student entry is from the no-bachelor degree group working in management across the globe (though we have found the whole group is average 37 not 27!). About half fall at the first hurdle of their first MBA class, a few more by the time of their third exam (the other half who fail have bachelor degrees!). As they pay for one exam at a time, the financial penalty is not onerous. As EBS is predominantly by distance learning there is no penalty on our resources and no crowding out of other students as there would be in a campus school.

    Last point: as all of our students sit the same final exams (3 hrs duration, no choice of questions, closed book, no 'hints' in class, no 'continuous assessment' off campus and out of sight and thereby open to fraud, one re-sit only, graded by EBS faculty and by External Examiners from other Business Schools, and invigilated or proctored by independent persons, etc.,) it is worth noting that our statistical tests show that by the time the non-bachelors pass their required MBA exams they cannot be distinguished by their results as a group from the bachelor degree students.

    Ergo, if they cannot be distinguished at MBA pass level, what is the rationale for denying them the chance to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that they are entitled to graduate MBA?

    Newbie2DL: if you think you are good enough, go for it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 20, 2004
  8. Han

    Han New Member

    You raise some good points, but how is the admission process conducted. If there is no foundation n the subject, no testing, etc, how does the school know who will be more likely to succeed.

    Also, what is the application versus acceptance rate?

    I ave seen some debate about this subject. Some schools think accept them all and worst case, they drop out and the tuition is still paid, so what is the harm. Others believe they will only expend the resources for those they think have a "fighting chance" of success. They also know that they can't accept everyone who applies, sometimes only a small fraction, so they need to judge based on past experience, schooling, etc.
     
  9. Professor Kennedy

    Professor Kennedy New Member

    Han

    Good points and thank you for raising them. It depends on your mind set. Bounded by traditional campus versus made wider by the advantages of distance learning (which is not the same as distance teaching)?

    We set our courses around specially written dl texts written by senior professorial faculty of UK, French and US Business Schools (some who tried to write to our specifications but did not pass the assessments were terminated). These Texts (7 core and a few electives - now 26 electives), are published by Pearson Education and may be purchased as any other books they sell.

    So the 'selection' process is arms length from EBS. A buyer receives the book and, if ready, applies to sit an examination. That is the first EBS knows of them. They sit the examination and if they pass they move onto the next course. If they have a first degree they are matriculated by the University. If they do not have a degree they are listed on our data base. When this last group pass three courses they are matriculated by the University (if they do not pass three courses they do not proceed - though in true DL and life long learning fashion, they may continue to buy courses if they wish).

    EBS makes no judgement as to their suitability for the course other than 'can they pass our examinations?' In effect, they are attendees at an Executive Management Course, not matriculated students on the MBA (the same applies to the DBA).

    There are no cash concerns on our part as each student buys a single course (GBP800) and then decides if the EBS MBA is for them - our exams test the validity of their assumptions. That is the extent of their cash exposure. The course they buy is self-contained - a printed Text book containing the examinable material plus an on-line set of materials (as large as the Text book, more cases, exercises and essays plus our Profiler which gaves feedback on their performance, past exams plus solutions and a faculty web board).

    In distance learning (not distance teaching) there is no limit to the numbers that can be accommodated on the programme. We do not need a rationing system to fit applicants to places in a lecture suite. We can 'accept everyone who applies' unlike in a campus school, without sacrificing one iota of quality - our exams are 'pass or perish'.

    Past schooling is not relevant. Our student performance records show unambiguously that past performance is not perfectly alligned with exam performance. About half the 'no bachelor degree' group fail their exams, and the others who fail have bachelor degrees (some in business subjects) and many who tell us they have good GMAT and GRE and GPAs, which probably explains why reputable Business Schools have near zero failure rates because they have had to 'adjust' downwards their exam regimes to pass practically everone who gets in, otherwise the 'sham' of their entry requirements would be exposed. Hence we ask for no GMAT, etc., scores.

    I hope I have answered your points. Be clear we are not arguing from theory but from the experience of running a rigorous MBA programme since 1991, based on our experience which challenges the assumptions, and unresearched 'certainties' of most campus based colleagues - though EBS is, of course, a campus bricks and mortar Business School that did the necessary research before embarking on the programme.
     
  10. Han

    Han New Member

    This is a very interesting model. I do like that it is per class, so if a student finds him/her self over their head, and needing that foundation concepts, they can, if fact go the more traditional route of a Bachelor's before the Master's (even DL traditional) and are not out a year's tuition.

    A few other questions, if you don't mind. Is there a time limit to each course? I would assume if some students didn't have foundation courses/concepts/experience, they may need more time. Is there a mechanism to accomidate for that?

    Also, is there an instructor at all, or is it all self taught / self study? That would answer my question about where a student would go that has questions and need some guidence in the learning process (that they might not be able to figure out on their own).

    I guess I am guilty of thinking of the traditional DL. I went from B&M to traditional courses/programs in DL (with a B&M pressence), so these concepts are new to me. Thanks for your time to explain.
     
  11. Newbie2DL

    Newbie2DL Member

    the original post...

    was to help identify other DL MBA programmes (preferanly in the UK) that accept students through taking a certificate or diploma as an alternative to having a bachelors degree.

    Anyone else have any ideas???

    Thank you
     
  12. Han

    Han New Member

    And your point??

    I think the school Professor Kennedy is mentioning and explaining in details fits you requirements. (I appreciate it).

    Did you not think this was acceptable to discuss a specific school? Wasn't that your "original question"? Do you want names only, then move on? Not sure what you want here... and heaven forbid others have questions in the discussion. Sorry that I am so slow.... geesshhhh!!!!
     
  13. bceagles

    bceagles Member

    Check out Cambridge College in Mass. They offer some MS in Management degrees that do not require an undergrad. You need to have a bunch of letters of recomendation and "X" amount of work experience, etc. As far as I know they are RA and offer a handful of online courses. Not sure if they offer MS in Management courses online. Might be worth a look if you would consider an MS in management over an MBA.

    Most undergrad programs (including the big 3) allow for you to apply 30 or so grad credits to an undergrad degree. The only examples I've seen of non undergrads (besides EBS) in Grad classes are full time day students at the top of their class asking the dean to let them take MBA courses instead of free electives.

    Let me know if you come up with any other schools that will allow this! Good Luck!
     
  14. Professor Kennedy

    Professor Kennedy New Member

    Hi Newbie2DL

    By way of explanation for my intervention. Han asked a question in response to your statement that HW allowed entry to its MBA 'without a bachelor degree:

    " Just curious, how can you take advanced level classes, without the foundation concepts? You may be able to test out on them, then move on, but I would think a school would want you to have that knowledge before going into the master's."

    Left by itself, the 'without bachelors' statement starts off lots of hares about EBS being 'sub standard', etc. I consider the policy of HW far more enlightened and its toughness not fully appreciated by the wider world of MBA students and, most importantly, among those interested in promoting DL, including many of those on Degreeinfo.

    For example: " I did a lot of searching when I was looking at MBA programs. HW was the only one that I saw that did not require a bachelor's."

    As a contribution to your search and to give comfort to your choices, I expanded on EBS researched pedagogy. To start a thread just to cover this would be out of context. I ended by asserting that 'if you think you are tough enough (for DL, or DT, or indeed, Campus T) go for it'. I still think that.

    Hans:

    You ask:
    "Is there a time limit to each course? "

    No time limits. Time limits are imposed by cohort teaching and feature unnecessarily in DL (hence they are Distance Teaching models).

    "Is there an instructor at all, or is it all self taught / self study?"

    No instructor. These are Distance Teaching models, not scalable and the source of probelms (e.g., UoP 'teaching teams').

    In DL, the emphasis is on you learning. Hence, self-taught using specialy written DL texts, with self-assessment tests and essays; practice cases and exam questions with solutions. Using technology, additional materials are supplied, plus electronic feedback. If that is not sufficient, faculty web boards for each course are supported by distant faculty, answered within 72 hours. FAQs cover most questions that arise on the materials in the texts, the web boards answer the rest. We are dealing with mature adults with business experience.

    People learn differently and no mode of learning is perfectly suited to everybody, including campus teaching, DT or DL. Hence, any mode has to carry different elements.

    Newbie2DL

    That, so far, other names of Schools have not come forward does not mean there are none. I suggest you check out Henley, for instance. Also, every University in the UK accepts on a case by case basis non-graduates into their graduate classes, including for PhDs (e.g, Jane Goodall of chimp fame at Cambridge). They do not advertise this, though it appears in their regulations.

    In CT (and DT) there are capacity constraints, where drop outs are expensive in the resources they use up. In DL there are no constraints within the likely range of uptake and no single course is expensive. Good luck in your search.
     

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