DL Law Degree .... Pragmatic uses??

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by J-Lew, May 16, 2004.

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  1. J-Lew

    J-Lew New Member

    Hi all, i just want to say that as a long time lurker, thank you for all the excellent and useful information that has been provided on this discussion forum. It has helped me immensely in terms of understanding what's available out there to meet my DL education and career aspirations. However, I'm still in a bit of a quandary and would like to post a message here to solicit any and all advice, which would be much appreciated btw.

    I'm a dual citizen of Canada and France. I hold 2 BA's as well as having completed the course work portion of an MA all from fully-fledged, accredited "brick and mortar" Canadian universities. Over the last 4 years I've been working in Taiwan teaching ESL and kind of let the MA program fall by the wayside. Guess I didn't really want it after all. Anyway, teaching in Taiwan has been a great experience, but now I'm looking for a career change. To "move up" in the world so to speak. Thefore, my educational concerns are most definitely pragmatic rather than academic per se.

    So, here I am, working in Taiwan, and I plan on using the steady income I receive from my current profession to pay for the education necessary to make a switch in careers. Therefore DL is the way to go for me. Any residency requirements whatsoever are simply out of the question.

    Basically, I want to study and PRACTICE law. Based on my research, three DL programs seem to me to be the best options. 1) University of London LL.B. 2) University of Northwestern California JD 3) William Howard Taft U. JD. All have their pros and cons.

    1) London is very prestigious academically speaking but in pragmatic terms of practicing law, it seems to be basically useless. In Canada, It only gives you the equivalent of 1L at a residential cdn. law school. In the US, you basically have to do a residential LL.M. at an ABA accredited school to have any hope of practicing there. It's ok in the UK, but they have a good 2-3 years of vocational and professional training awaiting you upon completion of the LL.B. As I understand it, 3 years of blood, sweat. and tears at U of L External will basically only allow you to study for at least 2-3 more years (or maybe longer) RESIDENTIALLY in the EU, Canada, or the US at great cost to you in terms of lost income and time expended relative to benefits accrued. Not a comforting thought.

    2) UNWC Law School seems to be more of a "black letter" professional school and as such, seems better suited to my career goals of practicing law. They're on the cheap end of the tuition scale (a good thing imho) and graduating from their JD program allows you to sit for the California Bar; and eventually to practice in California which is alright by me. I have no problems with being forced to pay my dues by practicing law in California, don't get me wrong, I'd do it in a heartbeat and be grateful for the opportunity. But this is a big problem inasmuch I'm a Canadian and therefore I'm simply not allowed to work (practice) at all in California and get that all important 5 years of experience under my belt. Being theoretically allowed to practice in California while not being able or allowed to work there in reality seems like an obvious dead-end to me. Are there ways around this that I'm unaware of? Any thoughts?

    3) WH Taft also sounds like a good attorney track school as well, but the same issues apply to it as to UNWC law school.

    There are no completely DL, bar-accredited law schools in Canada.

    To be honest, I really want the University of London LL.B. to work for me in terms of legal practice. It's a great degree from a great school with a great DL program. In terms of reputation and to make a resume nice and shiny, its probably as good as its going to get for me given my present living situation. But unfortunately, it seems that their external program doesn't translate very well into the actual practice of law. If i just wanted to study something for its own sake, i'd have chosen something more interesting than law i'm afraid.

    My last option is to just forget about DL law schools as none of them are able to ultimately serve my practical goals of practicing law in Canada, the US, or the EU without considerable residency requirements, lost income, etc. etc., and just finish that old MA degree via DL at Cal State: Dominguez Hills in Humanities; which seems like a decent arts program in its own right. In other words....figure the law thing out later :(

    A lot of you guys here seem extraordinarily knowledgeable about these schools, practicing law, the opportunities these schools offer, and about DL in general. What would you do in my place? Go the California non-accredited JD route and apply to immigrate to California all the while waiting with baited breath that I'll be allowed to work there and actually hadn't wasted $8k and 4 years? Please tell me I'm wrong about U of London external being an impractical, wholly academic law degree and that there's actual living, practicing lawyers out there who got this degree and are practicing law now in ANY jurisdiction in the world without having to spend another 2-3 or 4 years studying and/or apprenticing residentially!! Anything offered by way of advice would be VERY much appreciated.

    Thanks a lot, J-Lew
     
  2. Floyd_Pepper

    Floyd_Pepper New Member

    I am in the same boat like you so no much advice here (actually, see my question from today, almost about the same topics).

    Now, before I continue - a disclaimer - what I tell you know is based on what I understood reading online, not on personal experience.

    However, the UoL is no different from any British programme for that matter. You'd have had to do the practical course (which is one year for solocitors; two years for barristers) in any case, even if you went to a "conventional" university, in order to practice law in England and Wales. Later, you have 1-2 years training (and not a course) which are supposed to be PAID.

    If you came with this degree to Canada you'd have to do the practical course and the training as well. Maybe there are some Canadian schools that would accept you with this degree to the second part of their programme, sort of a "transfer" student? The practical course in the UK is supposed to be separated from your original LLB in the sense that you can also choose another school.

    As for the United States, well - tough. I read in Mullet.com that some people have managed to convince the NY State BAR on the degree; or to convince JD graduate schools to make the LLM transition in a very short period. As you can see, this is also (partly) my question.
     
  3. J-Lew

    J-Lew New Member

    Hi floyd, lol , turns out we were posting very similar requests at the same time!! I am beginning to see that studying for an LL.B. at the U of L is not the way to go for someone wanting to practice law in the US by way of DL education. It's just too difficult and time consuming to get recognized by the ABA afterwards, and it would seem that the overall costs are just too great. Not to mention that if you're not American, it'll be pretty difficult to make use of your California DL JD by practicing in California.

    You can transfer in to a residential cdn. law school upon graduating from U of L external. Usually the cdn. school will give you credit for 1L only. :( So then you've got two more years of university, plus articling requirements afterwards. Again, a huge headache. Hardly seems worth it.

    Coming from U of LX, it would seem that preparing to practice in the The UK sounds best. I don't understand the British system all that well yet, I was hoping to use the U of L LL.B. as a step to preparing for law practice in N. america. I'll have to do more research as what you say about the vocational and professional post-grad requirements in the UK sounds heartening.

    Thanks Floyd, and good luck to you.
     
  4. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Your understanding seems about as complete and accurate as can be imagined.

    I think you need to decide WHERE you want to practice and go from there. If Canada, no D/L program will really do you that much good. If France, who knows?

    An unaccredited American JD will not be worth much outside the U.S., IMHO.
     
  5. Howard

    Howard New Member

    Is an unaccredited (ABA) American JD really worth much INside the US.
     
  6. Floyd_Pepper

    Floyd_Pepper New Member

    While fixing myself some food, I thought on your question again.

    Practically, especially if you have no job permit in the US (like me), it is better to learn a degree that at least on paper is worth the same as any other British degree than to hope that you'll :
    - receive a job permit in the US after you graduate
    - be employable with a distance learning degree

    Howard and nosborne echoed some of these thoughts - I found nowhere but the UK that considers DL degrees the same way as "brick and mortar" ones. In the United States, it is acceptable only to sit in the California bar and that's a great limitation - IMHO - at least for me.

    Think of the worst case scenario, and what would you do if it had happened:

    - Worst case with UoL is that you'll have to spend money and time to study in Canada or the UK for the practical part of the degree ; you wouldn't (or couldn't) do it, but still have an LLB which is acceptable, which adds legal education to each menagerial or organisational job you'll take, etc.

    - Worst case with the Californian ones, is that you'll have no job permit, but this degree is also not very presentable (correct me if I'm wrong) in CV, etc.

    Again, this is only an opinion. I am in much of the same situation.
     
  7. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    An unaccredited but Bar qualifying J.D. (resident or D/L) can be the foundation of a career as an attorney in the U.S.

    Such a degree, coupled with several years of practice experience in the state where earned, is sufficient preparation to take the Bar in maybe half of the states.

    That said, the utility of such a degree is smaller by an order of magnitude than the utility of an ABA JD.
     
  8. John DeCarlo

    John DeCarlo New Member

    If you can get your hands on it The Sunday New York Times ran and Education Life supplement in late April or early May. There were several great stories on DL in general and one on a distance Law School in specific. You might find it interesting at the very least.
     
  9. PAULLIU

    PAULLIU New Member

    Hi J-Lew


    So nice to know that we have a nice English teacher here in Taiwan to teach our kids (I am also living on the island as well!) this beautiful language. Based on your qualification/experience, you can easily get an employer to sponsor you for the U.S. H-1 Visa/Working permit and a Green Card (P-3 Classification)later. it might be time for you to leave Foremosa for 3-4 years and move to California to study law. You can enter the country with your F-1 Visa and do the status changed later once you have secured an employment (there is a huge demand for ESL teachers in California, especially those ESL schools run by the Chinese/Taiwanese focus on the local Asian market). In California, you can have more options-ABAs or Non-ABAs. I got my JD from Univ. of La Verne at the time when it was only state-approved (the University itself is WASC accredited). However, I was told that ULV will be ABA acredited this coming fall. So you may want to consider those schools that have the "ABA acreditation potential" as well. Or if you can not leave taiwan due to other personal reasons, you may want to consider DETC/Cal Bar accredited JD such as WTU and Concord (expensive but famous). It will take you 4 years to complete the program but you will be able to continue teaching English.


    Paul Liu, Esq. (Cal Bar). MBA, JD, Ph.D STUDENT (NCU)
     
  10. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    LaVerne has been working on ABA accreditation for some years, now. Hope they succeed.
     
  11. Dude

    Dude New Member

    Actually, since J is a Canadian citizen, the easiest immigration route for him would probably to qualify for TN status under NAFTA. This would be much less hassle and time consuming than an H-1B would be. This should also be VERY easy to obtain with professional qualifications.
     
  12. J-Lew

    J-Lew New Member

    Hi everybody, thank you for all the information you've provided so far. It's a complex situation and you've done a lot to make things clearer, again, thanks a lot.

    Hi Paul are you currently practicing law in Taiwan? If I understood you correctly, you're saying that one could go to California as a student (F-1) and study law there, or else go there to teach ESL (H-1 visa and P-3 class Green card later), or finally one could also figure out some kind of a workable combination of the two. There's some very interesting possibilities in that. I hadn't actually thought about going to California to teach english, and dealing with many of the the immigration hassles before law school! That's a great idea and I might just do it, although to be totally honest, I'd rather teach ESL on beautiful Formosa while studying for a JD. (mostly because of the good salary the profession pays in Taiwan relative to most other countries) ;)

    I suppose that once one passes the Cal State Bar, a JD from a non-ABA acc. college, a DL JD, and/or a 4th tier school is viewed pretty much the same in the profession all other things being equal. It's not like the firms will be beating down your door to employ you immediately upon graduation in any case (lol). That's why I was thinking that it would be a terrible idea to study for the California JD, then pass the State Bar, only to find out that nobody wants you and therefore your degree won't allow you to work there in the end!!!

    I wonder if its feasible to put in say, 2 years of a DL JD while working here in Taiwan and then transfer to an accredited "brick and mortar" college in California for 3L (wouldn't that be sweet if an ABA-acc. school would recognize at least some of the credits you earned through DL).....also there's the "future accredation potential" of a DL school to consider as it would seem that your own JD is about to appreciate in value! ......Hmmm, thanks Paul for showing me that the chance to practice law in California isn't a lost cause!

    Dude, I need to ask you, what is "TN status" and how does the existence of NAFTA relate to Canadians qualifying for this?? Why would this be easy to obtain if I had professional qualifications?

    thanks again, J-Lew
     
  13. A TN visa is a visa only available to Nafta treaty nations (Canada and Mexico). It is a non-resident, 1 year visa renewable as many times as you like.

    Here's a link that should explain more, as well as list the job lists and required education/qualifications.

    http://travel.state.gov/tn_visas.html

    Unlike H visas which have a quota (currently backlogged until at least October when the new year starts) as well as a lot of requirements to be met, a TN is basically a "show up at the airport with the documentation" visa. Note that it does have to be renewed EVERY year, meaning a trip back to Canada and the border.

    However, a TN does not allow you to pursue "dual intent" - living as a non-resident on a TN while pursuing a green card. the H1 and L1 visa classes allow for dual intent.

    Whichever route you undertake (should you do so) I strongly suggest contacting a qualified immigration attorney. As a Canadian citizen who has had 2 H visas, 1 L and now a green card, there's a lot of paperwork to go through!

    Cheers,
    Mark
     
  14. novemberdude

    novemberdude New Member

  15. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Or a "senior status" LL.B. from the University of London external programme. Also two years full time or three years part time.
     
  16. novemberdude

    novemberdude New Member

    Doing the UoL LLB in two years would be a lot of work!

     
  17. PAULLIU

    PAULLIU New Member

    Hi J-Lew

    I have sent you a private message.Bye.
     
  18. J-Lew

    J-Lew New Member

    Hi, so then about this CPE in northumberland. From what I understand, you can theoretically bypass the U of L, LL.B. program by completing this one in 2 years. A sort of "fast-track" to the barrister and solicitor vocational course. Interesting option. Thanks for that.

    Nosborne, i know about the senior status entry into U of L, and that it's also 2 years. but gawd! that looks like such a difficult option. A ton of work there, for sure. :( But then again, a degree from London is one of the best DL law degrees out there.

    I guess at this point, given that I now know that immigration to the US won't really be a problem, nor would be working in the UK; it's most important to ask: "WHAT kind of law do you want to practice." and also "WHERE do you want to live?" That will finally determine as to whether going the California JD, Cal Bar route or the U of L, LL.B. route is ultimately best for one's own personal goals and direction. What makes it a harder decision is that the LL.B. is an undergrad degree, while the JD is essentially a grad. degree. *sigh* choices choices.......

    thanks again ......... j-lew
     
  19. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    I am going to regret saying this...now that I have actually BEGUN my LL.M. studies (having completed Spanish 212 HOORAY!) there is a WORLD of difference between my J.D. studies and the LL.M. work.

    The JD is a graduate degree in the limited sense that it generally follows the granting of a bachelorate in any subject. It is a INTENSE three year program, much harder than any BA work I ever did. However, it is NOT "graduate school".

    There are "answers" at the professional level. Sometimes the answer is a process rather than a conclusion, but to a very large extent, it is cut and dried. Not so for the graduate student. The reading is much more academic than textbook; much more reflection is required than would be possible in a J.D. program.

    Anyway, I don't think there's much difference between an undgergrad LL.B. and a postgrad J.D. in THIS respect. The degrees are VERY different in other ways, though.
     
  20. J-Lew

    J-Lew New Member

    Good points Nosborne. It would stand to reason that a pre-prof program wouldn't be as intellectually and academically rigorous as say, an actual post-bac graduate program in the strict sense of the term. I used the term "gradute program" loosely, thinking of it in terms of that which follows an undergrad degree and also grants you the basic qualifications to teach at college and university. An important and valuable aspect of a JD degree imho.

    I don't doubt that an LL.M. is much more academic than the JD. I'm sure it would require and value more independent thought on the part of the student. The JD on the other hand, is professional training, prepping you for a bar exam where there are "answers" in the strict sense of the term. And if you get those answers right, you can then practice law. Which is where I start to get interested.

    That information is really good to know as it makes things a little clearer about the differences betwen studying for a California DL JD, and the LL.B., LL.M. programs at the University of London. Nosborne, you said that the two degrees are very different in other respects. In what respects are they very different?

    thanks, J-Lew
     

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