What is the real ROI for a law degree?

There are two new law schools in my state that recently made me ponder this question: what is the REAL return on investment for a law degree? With the average tuition for a law degree approaching six-figures and the average starting salary for a lawyer with no work experience at $40k, does it really make financial sense to pursue such a career?

One of the new law schools that made me ponder such a question is The Appalachian School of Law. This law school was created just a few short years ago with the goal of bringing a way for the poor, impoverished people of the Appalachian Mountains to get a law education and supposedly follow a law career. The school was built in the opressed coal-mining town of Grundy, Virginia. Don't let the pretty campus fool you; the ASL is the best looking ediface in the entire tiny town. Trust me, I've been there. The ASL has evolved into an interesting entity of sorts. Tuition and living expenses for the three years at the school is around $100k. In the end, very few people from the area are now attending the school. The majority of its student body is comprised of students from several states away who couldn't get into any other law school.

The other law school that has piqued my curiosity is the new law school at Liberty University. Liberty is offering some great scholarships for a few people in the first class to draw enrollment interest, but the other folks are going to be paying about $100k for the total package.

So, my questions is: Is law school really worth it? What is the REAL return on investment? I know there are some lawyers on the board and am interested in all opinions or been-there-done-that stories.

Cy

 

I haven't been there, done that yet,

but that's where I'm headed at age 47.

I know Lawyers or I should say, former lawyers who do not practice any more but have taken nice safe sane positions in government with salaries ranging from $70k/yr up to 200+k/yr.

There is going to be a vacancy in the Congressional District in which I live later this year, the first in 24 years, I personally know three very qualified lawyers with extensive experience at the state level of electoral politics who have each said they are not interested because they and their families would starve without their respective HIGH six-figure a year law practices.

At the low end of the income spectrum, I know personally a very intelligent, very talented 73 year-old lawyer who scratches out a living as a public-defender (at 28k/yr). He was elected a state-senator at 23 two years BEFORE he finished law school, graduated first in his class from a very prestigious southern law school, got convicted of extortion before his first term as a state senator was up, did his time in jail, did legal clerking for another 15 years until he was re-admitted to the BAR, got the only job he find as a PD and spends way too much time IN BARS trying to drown his sorrow for himself.

Moral of the story? When it comes to ROI on a JD, that JD is worth whatever the holder makes of it, no less and no more.

Like any other field no one is going to come running to you hat in hand begging you to take a 100k job right out of law school (unless of course your father or mother is a U. S. Senator!)

That law degree and whatever your ROI is going to be will depend far more on your individual talent as a lawyer and how well you market the talent that you acheive.

 

Re: I haven't been there, done that yet,

I have to agree! In today's job market, firms are hiring only the top-notched new lawyers from the more recognizable schools. I always wanted a Law Degree (and I began the process of starting at Chapman Law School in Orange, California last year before I changed my mind). It seemed as if everyone that I came into contact with in the legal field mentioned how hard it is to get a job today...that can actually help pay off college loans and help them to live a nice lifestyle.

But, don't be discouraged and don't just take my (or the people who will reply to your thread) word for it. If you feel that you can "Make a lawyer of yourself" then hopefully you will prove your talents and land a 6-figure position...or make whatever out of the degree that you intend to going in.

Remember, we only lose when we don't try!

 

I can't speak for the rest of the country, but here in the Boston area, the market is saturated with lawyers. Only the most-qualified and/or best-credentialed are going to make an attractive wage.

Those categories are sometimes mutually exclusive. I've gone against Harvard Law grads that were borderline incompetent, while our union's litigation attorney is a graduate of a Tier-4 law school, but is the best trial attorney that I've ever seen. He makes as much, if not more money that many Harvard Law grads.

 

The postings, so far, are right on in my experience.

However, no matter what kind of law you want to practice, I think $100K for a JD (tuition alone) is a financial committment that must be seen as very risky. Jobs that pay enough to make it worthwhile are NOT plentiful; if you don't get one, your JD is worth pretty much the same as the guy's who went to his State school.

 

My sister-in-law graduated from Ohio State Law School in the top 10% of her class about 4 years ago. After a year of searching, she took a job with the state that paid about 37K. Even with scholorships, she complains that she has 60K in students loans to repay.

 

Putting on the MBA hat for a moment, rather than looking at this as a ROI calculation, look at it as a payback period calculation. If one were to do so, law school, or any type of education, may make a more compelling financial argument.

Having said that, I think that trying to quantify any degree in terms of a financial return is taking a very narrow view. Do what you love, and the money will follow. If the money doesn't follow, at least you are not stuck doing a job you hate.

PS: I forgot to mention that I work in a job where I retain and supervise attorneys as they defend my healthcare clients in malpractice claims. The Seattle area is another place that is saturated with attorneys right now, and in certain areas of the law, there are decreasing amounts of work. Unless you are making a lateral move, have relevant non-legal work experience or are an Order of the Coif, it can be very difficult for a new graduate to find employment here in some areas of the law. We don't see a lot of graduates from the major East Coast law schools out here, unless they were born and raised here and are returning home.

 

Depends what you do with it

Some people just want a law degree for personal reasons or because it will enhance their resume in another field. They may not wish to practice law at all. If that is your case, then you might take a look at Oak Brook College of Law (http://www.obcl.edu/). I don't have personal experience of them, but they seem legit.

 

I have been preaching the "Cheap J.D." gospel on this board for years. I got my J.D. from the U of New Mexico, one of the cheapest (instate) ABA schools in the country. My income in a career in public practice does not compare with the salaries of those who go into private practice with major firms (although when you crank in the retirement and benefits package, it's not as bad as it seems) but neither do I work more than about 45 hours a week. Believe me, the "big boys" work almost twice that.

It really is about choice; if you borrow to get the Stanford degree, you are pretty well foreclosed from public practice or small firm private practice because you won't be able to afford it. On the other hand, a J.D. from UNM is not exactly a passport to unheard of wealth.

If I were a permanent Californian with a desire to work in a small firm or solo, I'd think HARD about a correspondence JD from Taft or Northwestern Cal. Not OakBrook because I am not a Christian; otherwise they look'd awful good.

 

There is this perception that lawyers are always very wealthy and that is only true for a small part of the population.

The job market right now is not so good (in Canada or the U.S) but once you graduate (assuming it takes you 3 years from today) the market should be ok. If you go to a top tier law school and decide you want to do corporate law in a big firm, firms in big cities pay you a six figure salary (or almost) right off the bat. And if you decide to work during the summers, you can also earn quite a bit to offset your costs as well. That being said, corporate law isn't for everyone, you work A LOT of hours.

I think the bottom line is this. A law degree opens A LOT of doors (both in a traditional private or in house counsel but also government etc...). If you're going to law school just for the money, you might be in for a surprise. But if you go into it because law is what you like and what you want to do, it's certainly worth it (and as someone above mentioned it, you don't need a top tier law degree if that's your goal).

 

As JGirl says.

The lawyers I have known that were the HAPPIEST in their choice of profession were the ones using their skills to help people who needed help.

The bitterest were those who wanted money.

This isn't just my opinion, either; criminal defense lawyers really enjoy their work but are by far the lowest paid. On the other end of the scale, labor lawyers are among the top earners and they hate it. Now where did I see this survey?

Bottom line: If you want to be a HAPPY lawyer, get a CHEAP JD!

 

As far as happiness factor goes, I agree with Nosborne48.

On the economic side, there are many outstanding attorneys who don’t make a lot of money and a lot of mediocre attorneys who make a great deal of money. The difference is business knowledge.

One of the most successful attorneys in California was a top Xerox salesperson before he attended a Western State University, non-ABA school. He was able to apply his marketing skills to his law practice.

 

Speaking of Western State, what a mess for students that may turn out to be.

I understand that they are at some risk of losing their ABA accreditation and they let their decades-old CalBar accreditation lapse. Having won ABA provisional accreditation, I imagine that they didn't think they'd need CalBar accreditation any more.

So their 2004 grads wouldn't fit under any of the CalBar categories for Bar eligibility. No three year programs are acceptable EXCEPT ABA and CalBar accredited schools.

Their 2004 grads would be exempt from the FYLEX because they completed their first yea studies in an ABA accredited school. I imagine they could transfer much of their work to other schools. I wonder how much credit they could receive?

Potentially, an awful mess, and the students have been paying, what, $36,000 per year in tuition?

 

Willie Gary: An example

Gunsmoke hit it right on the head. It's what you do with your degree.

Follow this link Willie Gary to see how this guy used his North Carolina Central Law Degree (from a low tier school) to become a multi-millionaire attorney, with his own private plane.

If he can do it, anyone can do it. It takes a lot of hard work on your part, but it can be done.

Gilbert Labossiere
BBA Baker College
MBA Nova Southeastern University 2005

 

One of the RAs is the University of LaVerne, which seems to have been seeking ABA accreditation for some time now. Another is the New Colege of San Francisco.

Both law schools enjoy a very good reputation in their locales.

I don't know why LaVerne doesn't have ABA accreditation; it is a traditional law school and, judging by a sample of one I knew quite well, they do a good job.

In New College's case, I think that their program may rely too heavily on teaching by private attorneys and judges to satisfy the ABA standards. That's often the case with CalBar accredited resident programs.

Students in both programs are exempt from taking the FYLEX.

No RA law school offers a D/L program. The nearest thing to it is that Taft and Concord are DETC accredited.

 

With respect to Western State, look for the California Bar to waive their normal rules and reinstate WSU's California accreditation. It's already in the works.

The ABA, while sticking to their position, will allow the school to re-apply for provisional accreditation without waiting the normal time period, I believe 10 months.

I expect in the end all the problems will be worked out but I can't imagine why anyone would enroll in the fall.

 

David Boyd:

So Western State's suit against the ABA may yield some results in the form of a settlement?

I looked at the CalBar rules; you could argue that Western State has been CalBar accredited right along by operation of law without dying of embarrasement.

Western State has a LOT of alumni out there so I have no doubt that you are correct.