Low Tech Engineering Education for Americans

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Laser100, Apr 2, 2004.

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  1. Laser100

    Laser100 New Member

    Low Tech Engineering Education for Americans
    By Paul R.Clark

    The American educational system is falling behind in the embrace of new technologies for distance education instruction in engineering disciplines. Australia is a leader in distance engineering education programs. Many other countries are rapidly developing programs to utilize the new web-based technologies and video conferencing methods.

    Educators say that if the US does not increase the
    number of engineering graduates soon it will lose out in
    the global marketplace, according to an article by Charles
    Murray in EE Times Online. See http://www.eetimes.
    com/story/OEG20020702S0041


    The Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (ABET) is hurting the development of these programs.

    See the University of Omaha Article on ABET Distance Educational Restrictiveness.
    http://www.unomaha.edu/~wwwpa/project/scarpellini.html

    "Accreditation Boards for Various Professions.
    In a review of the websites for a range of professional accreditation boards, distance education was given only minor attention. The Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology, Inc. (ABET) certifies program-related to engineering and technology. Currently, they do not differentiate between traditional and distance delivery methods or assessments. A large portion of the programs ABET evaluates requires onsite laboratory practice that is ill-suited to distance techniques. When possible, distance delivery is worked into various components of more applicable programs. Likewise, the American Psychological Association (APA) has been slow to address the potential of employing distance education techniques. The accreditation standards created in 1996 do not reflect an inclination to acknowledge or pursue evaluation of this area. Most accreditation boards are more amenable to exploring the potential of distance education than ABET and APA."

    More problems with ABET can be found at:
    http://www.prism-magazine.org/feb02/webextra.cfm

    It is my opinion that a greater effort can be made by ABET to expand the number of distant education opportunities for American students in the disciplines of engineering studies. If the advisory board of ABET is too old fashion to take on new technologies then it needs to step down or get out of the way. The US Department of Education, The National Science Foundation, and NCEES need to carefully consider the direction of our educational system’s future.
     
  2. Laser100

    Laser100 New Member

  3. Laser100

    Laser100 New Member

    How can Americans profess to be on the Cutting Edge of Education when we are basically using slide rulers instead of computers with our educational delivery methods?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 2, 2004
  4. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    You can add the American Bar Association to the list of D/L hostile accrediting agencies.
     
  5. agilham

    agilham New Member

    Just as a matter of interest.

    A. What is the ABA's objection to DL law degrees? I've looked at their web site, but all I can see is "no DL", but there doesn't seem to be any objective justification, which seems rather strange to somebody from a country where law degrees by DL have been happily in existence for well over a century. Hell, we've even had a Prime Minister with a third from the UoL distance programme.

    B. Why has nobody considered sueing the ABA for restraint of trade? Or has the ABA (understandably) got far too good lawyers for that to be contemplated.

    Angela
     
  6. SQLplus

    SQLplus New Member

    Why become an engineer anyway?

    Given that there are thousands of experienced, educated engineers desperate for work in the US already, who would go into this field now? When you graduate you will be competing for work against India and China.
     
  7. Laser100

    Laser100 New Member

    No Engineering Jobs

    I believe their will be jobs here for engineers because it is such a broad area of discipline.
     
  8. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    The ABA has in fact been sued for restraint of trade. However, they point out that their accreditation is completely voluntaryfor the school and no one compels the various state bar authorities to insist on ABA degrees.

    I guess that the Bar authorities are the ones who really should be sued, not the ABA, but the caselaw is against that effort succeeding.

    I think Agilham is in England? There are significant differences between the English and American systems of legal education. The biggest one is that finishing an American JD means being qualified to take the Bar. Passing the Bar means receiving an unlimited right to practice. (Delaware excepted)

    In England and most other common law countries, finishing the LL.B merely qualifies the student to take a graduate law practice course conducted usually be the law society or Bar association itself and usually NOT D/L followed by a period of clerkship or pupillage which are NEVER D/L.

    Even the Canadian provinces require nine months or so of articles before turning the lawyer loose on society.

    So as a practical matter, England isn't thrilled with a completely D/L legal education any more than the ABA is.
     
  9. Mike Albrecht

    Mike Albrecht New Member

    Most ABET accredited engineering programs have DL component, and yes it is primarily at the masters level, becasue that is where the demand is. Even looking over this and other Dl fora you reach the conclusion that the average preseptive student is looking for a graduate degree.

    Even look at the other fields (besides engineering), most DL degrees are at the graduate level. Those at the undergrad level are mostly general studies or liberal arts. IMHO this is from two factors: demand (as I said above) and the difficulty of offering lab courses at a distance.

    ABET is actually taking the lead insome ares ( http://www.abet.org/tei%5Fworkshops.html) in furthering technology in the classroom.
     
  10. Tom57

    Tom57 Member

    Good point.
     
  11. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    I think engineering is a safe route for most people. There are plenty of jobs all over the world, and even in recession times this typeof professionals are very much required. Yes, it is clear some manufacturing works are moving to developing nations but not engineering.

    Greetings to all.
     
  12. Ian Anderson

    Ian Anderson Active Member


    In the aerospace industry engineering jobs are being outsourced to foreign countries including Russia, Japan and EEC members. This includes work on the new 7E7 and F-35 aircraft.

    Although I've been employed in aerospace for 30+ years, I now recommend either civil engineering or chemical engineering to the very few high school graduates I meet that are considering an engineering career.
     
  13. AV8R

    AV8R Active Member

    I'm not so sure I would even recommend chemical engineering anymore. A great friend of mine who graduated valedictorian (back in the day) from high school finished a degree in chemical engineering. The company he worked for had to drop him after its work contract expired and he spent about a year collecting unemployment before he could find work again. Brilliant guy, just not enough demand for chemical engineers.

    Cy
     
  14. jerryclick

    jerryclick New Member

    What I'm running into, at least in the "Silicon Forest" of Oregon/Washington, is that many employers put job requirements like: "...must have minimum 10 years in field, Masters degree, passport, and H-1 visa..." for a position that pays $20,000 to 30,000 a year. The H-1 visa is not available to me as I'm a US citizen, but I couldn't get an interview without one. Then they claim that they have to import foreign workers since "they can't find any qualified US citizens" to work.
     
  15. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    Hi Ian

    I think the aerospace sector is definitely exceptional since politics are involved in it.I know, for instance, that The Netherlands is buying the American Fighter (I cannot recall its name) instead of buying the Eurofighter. Because of that Fokker, the Dutch plane maker, gets to design some parts of the American Fighter.

    Here in Europe IT jobs go abroad (to developing nations) and manufacturing tends to go to Eastern Europe, and, of course, to developing countries. However, enginering jobs (design) as of today seem to stay. Just my two cents.
     
  16. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Besides, a degree in engineering opens a lot of doors in business, research, academia, government, and law.

    Wish I'D been wise enough to get one in my mis spent youth!
     
  17. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    German automobile (and truck) manufacturing is increasingly being done in the U.S.
     
  18. florida55

    florida55 New Member

    Outsourcing

    JLV......Engineering is no longer a safe field as you claim. Not only is engineering being outsourced in the filed of Aviation, it is quickly getting outsourced in areas such as Power Distribution (EE's), Machine Design (ME's), Ship Design and Construction (ME's, Naval Architects, and EE's),....the list goes on. This country's ability to build high precision machining centers, switchboards, and new ships is almost gone.

    When I got my B.S. in Engineering many years ago, the typical graduating senior received 7-9 job offers. The trend now is that degreed engineers are lucky to get 1 job offer. Many are opting to go directly for an M.S. waiting for the economy to rebound.
     

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