Rev Jones, what are you doing?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by uncle janko, Mar 15, 2004.

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  1. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    You have posted the same post on three different threads at substantially different times of posting. When I asked you straight-up questions about GTF, you managed vaguely to answer only one of them--the one concerning the United Methodist church. You preface your post with a dismissal of other posters as ignorant, but provide no real documentation of the merits of this school. You further applaud the negative comments made about the forum as a whole by another poster.

    Rev. Jones, what did you come here to do?
     
  2. revjones

    revjones New Member

    My dear friend, I agreed with the gentleman that there are some people in the forum (not all people) who are closed minded. When they have their mind made up about a school, they act as if their word is the law. Secondly, I did answer your questions. There were some questions that were broad and therefore I gave you a broad answer. My point was that Graduate Theological Foundation was a reputable institution. Does it not mean anything that the new Bishop Elect for the New Jersey Dioc... holds a degree from GTF?
     
  3. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    No, you avoided most of my questions, actually only answering the one about the United Methodist church--and still not explaining your circuitous wording, at that. You have not explained why you duplicated your post in several places. You have adopted the tone and attitude of one of our most, erm, epistemologically idiosyncratic posters. Some bishop of somebody's New Jersey diocese (whose?) attended your school. Maybe that is impressive, if you like bishops, or New Jersey. "Does it not mean anything...?" What would you like it to mean?

    So, are you a shill for a mill?

    Maybe not. I received a private message from a poster whose acumen and intellectual integrity I trust vouching for the high standards of one of your graduates, and satisfactorily explaining (as you did not) one of the collaborative relationships between GTF and another institution. So it could be that, although you represent it poorly, your school is actually OK.

    Maybe. Your evasiveness surely points in that direction. Your willingness to assume the martyr's mantle because somebody is "unforgiving" about your school's egregiously stupid (or was it corrupt?) acquisition of utterly phony accreditation points in that direction. Given your mainline protestant clientele, who tend to be quite specific in denominational requirements of RA/ATS accreditation, it's really tough to believe that the ACI thing was just a blooper. But maybe it was. Maybe the Oxford marketing ploy really is based upon the beautiful scenery of the place rather than on an attempt to pass off a degree from nowhere in particular as an Oxford degree.

    If you were a fundie trying to overawe people into accepting a shaky school you'd adopt a hellfire tone or question your critics' love of Jesus. As a mainliner trying to overawe people into accepting a shaky school you trot out Olde Englisshe snob value and an actual live bishop. Great.

    I don't overawe that easily. And I'm not your dear friend.

    Levicoff was right. As usual.
     
  4. revjones

    revjones New Member

    I felt comfortable calling you my dearfriend because I assumed that you were a Christian. It is my personal belief that persons in the Body of Christ are one. I did not avoid your questions. I am not a school administrator/faculty. So I can't answer some of those questions. You mentioned the person that sent you a private message made GTS "O.K." What was shared? I won't be sucked in to a petty debate. It really is not that important to me whether or not a school is respected by you or not. What does it matter? Does the future of the institution rest upon your opinion. By the way, in a recent post did you not type N....r. What was the point? One final question. Why does it matter to you why I duplicated a post?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 16, 2004
  5. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Because posting duplicate messages regarding a less-than-wonderful school is not only a transparent tactic of a degree mill shill, but it also attracts traffic by those who would purvey in such activities, along with their customers. Not that this is what you're doing, of course. I'm just answering an academic question, right?

    Just because people posting here tell it like it is regarding such schools doesn't make them "close minded." (sic)
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Even though you are my Uncle, I must disagree on this point, Janko.

    I know nothing of the intent behind the GTF/ACI relationship, only that it speaks favorably of GTF, imo, that the relationship is now defunct (if indeed Rev. Jones' assertion is correct). Nor am I familiar with the Oxford/Rome/Indiana relationship. I have, however, examined in detail one GTF degree program and it is certainly no money-for-diploma business.

    GTF has a relationship with Alamance Regional Medical Center in Burlington, NC, where one may earn a DMin in Pastoral Care, in conjunction with ARMC's ACPE accredited CPE program. The program requires 2-3 years to complete, including a dissertation. The senior chaplain at ARMC, who holds his doctorate from GTF and is an ACPE accredited CPE Supervisor, coordinates the program. Since I live in Burlington, I have met with the chaplain and discussed the program, viewing the syllabi and program requirements. As a result of this meeting (2 years ago) I found this particular GTF program as rigorous as the RA DMin I completed in '96. So, in terms of program rigor, at least in this specific GTF program, I saw nothing of a millish nature.
     
  7. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Hi Vladica:

    You may be right. I'm not convinced you are, and the more Jones talks, the dubiouser I get. Now he's more concerned that I mentioned another poster calling me a n****r than that the other poster (his buddy, apparently) actually did so. Classic distraction tactic. Won't work.

    Anyway, to me, GTF does some really millish misrepresentations, and yet, both you and another poster whose views I respect speak highly of it, and yet, everything Levicoff said makes sense.

    Program rigor alone does not make a school ethical or honest. I trust your assessment of that, but must regard it as only part of the--so far, funhouse--picture.

    Oh, BTW, I have nothing against bishops per se, least of all against you. Just stay outta Jersey, man, the turf's claimed already.

    So so far:

    On the one hand there are serious unanswered questions (the same fellow who thundered authoritatively now whinges that he's not "a faculty"); the weaselly "Oxford" gambit; the deliberate use of ACI by folks who, given their mainline culture and its fetish of RA/ATS, must have known exactly what they were doing with ACI and backed away only when they got caught at it; and the presence here of a fellow who acts like a shill even if he isn't very good at it (and so may just be a pompous would-be intimidator rather than an actual shill).

    On the other hand, there are trustworthy observations from you and P.M. Whozits.

    So, I kiss your hand as always, Vladica, but I'll still have to follow Levicoff on this one unless more light and truth break forth...
     
  8. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I wonder if doing something stupid and then undoing it would leave anybody better off than they would have been if they had done nothing stupid in the first place.

    But I am tentatively willing to accept your larger point, Russell. I was just Googling GTF and lots of interesting stuff came up. Perhaps somebody more ambitious than myself could make a case that this Graduate Theological Foundation is one of the more interesting and credible non-accredited online seminaries out here.

    But my opinion remains decidedly mixed. The ACI foolishness (even if we are told that it was subsequently repudiated). The spurious Oxford connections (including several graduates suggesting that their GTF degrees are from Oxford or implying that their GTF fellowships were Oxford fellowships). That impressive photo of GTF's "campus" that turned out to be a convent down the road. (That's been removed as well, I think.) Even the thing's name, which seems intentionally designed to create confusion with the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley.

    I think that if GTF cut the crap and just admitted to being what they are, a (possibly) good and (definitely) interesting non-accredited seminary, then I might come to like them. There certainly seem to be a number of very credible people associated with this place. Conceivably it's a valuable intellectual resource.

    But unfortunately, like so many Christian clergymen, "Rev. Jones" really needs to work on his apologetics. It would be much more effective to present some evidence of GTF's academic credibility than to insult Degreeinfo's participants and demand that everyone embrace GTF a-priori, sight unseen. If Jones thinks that we are ignorant about his institution, then he needs to seize this opportunity to educate us.
     

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