What should I do?

I recently was asked to meet this new associate minister. I decided to go with a friend and we all went to eat at the local restaurant. We were discussing various topics and then I went back to the church to pick up a book that the local minister said that he would give to me. The associate minister asked me to come into his new office. He had on the wall the ordinations and degrees. I noticed that his ordination was from a place that has been mentioned on this forum and also that his degree is from an unaccredited religious school, which has also been mentioned on this forum. I have taken the liberty to not disclose where these are from because in essence, if it is from an unaccredited source, the name does not much matter. My question is that he is using these titles (Rev. and Dr.) and was recently hired by this church, which happens to be a non-denominational church. I am very good friends with the minister and also with my friend that goes to church there. Is there something I should do about this situation? Should I bring it up to the minister or to my friend? I do not understand how it is that such people can use these titles when from unaccredited sources. Why do people do these kinds of things? They say that these credentials are legal, and if that is the case, then what can be done? I feel as though I have a civic duty to let someone know but I also feel like I should possibly stay out of it. I do not want to jeopardize my friendships. Thank you for your assistance, and I look forward to hearing from you.

 

> They say that these credentials are legal, and if that is the
> case,

It is. Churches have the right to confer religious degrees for any reason or none. The US Supreme Court has upheld that in the case of the Doctor of Divinity from the Universal Life Church.

> I have taken the liberty to not disclose where these are from
> because in essence, if it is from an unaccredited source, the
> name does not much matter.

"Unaccredited" isn't always "bad". Bob Jones University is a good unaccredited school.

I will leave it to a Christian to advise you.

 

It actually matters quite a bit. An "unaccredited school" can range anywhere from a school that is a viable candidate for accreditation, to a sincere, legitimate school that will never achieve accreditation, to a totally fraudulent diploma mill. All are unaccredited, all may even be legal, but not all are legitimate.

I can understand not naming the minister or the church, but you'll have to name the school if you want serious feedback.

 

Re: Re: What should I do?

Bruce is exactly right. This is particularly true with religious degrees because there are denominations that accept unaccredited degrees. In those particular cases, acceptance by the denomination may be more important than accreditation.

You've got to give up the school name or everyone is just guessing.


Tom Nixon

 

i find this very interesting. if the degree is used for nothing else than to get personal satisfaction or special training that is needed then it is fine. why does a degree have to be accredited to make everyone happy? to me its nobody's businuss. UNLESS, the degree is used in deception or to decieve others. if it is a degree mill degree then it is useless and used only to decieve folks.

i have a degree from an unaccredited ministry school that i worked my tail off to get. the purpose of the degree was to become more well rounded as a person and to help me carry out the great commission. so i could care less what anyone else has to say about what my degree is worth. the truth is learned many, many things about scripture, ministry and in general how to reach the world around me. many ministries have their own internal training programs and do not consider or care what outsiders think.

 

IMO, when a minister is called "Dr." without finishing a program of study which closely approximates the rigor and requirements of accredited or GAAP doctoral programs of study, that is reproachable.

Many do not realize that even a professional doctorate in ministry, DMin., from a good school requires at least six or more years of difficult study past the BA , and that the US academic PhD/ThDs in Theology or Biblical studies often require nine or more years past the BA. Recently in another thread I mentioned the Master's Seminary ThD which requires three languages and the passing of five four hour exams and the prior completion of an accredited four year ThM with thesis JUST TO ENTER the doctoral program! There is ten times the work just to be ready to start a doctorate at Master's than some millish schools require to finish a doctorate.

Ministers are not to be exempt from criticism. Their conduct is to be above reproach and they are required to have a good reputation with those outside of the church. ( 1 Timothy 3) That INCLUDES academia and us rabblerousers here! That conduct includes their education. IMO the education of a minister much becomes his congreants' business when he hangs his diplomas on the wall, when he wants to be called "Dr." , and when he uses in ministry what he was taught in his schooling. And God has made a minister's behavior the business of the world too! Just because the minister tends the soul rather than the teeth or the body or the mind, does not mean he should be called "Dr" without genuinely earning that degree.

This is to be qualified with the observation that not all UA theology schools are bad--just the vast majority. Also, studying to serve is very good. But, one does NOT need to be called "Dr." to be a servant.

 

Bill Grove,

i agree with you as far a doctoral goes. i hope it was not misunderstood that i think that its ok to call yourself dr. without putting in the true work and study to earn the right to be called so. i think i made that clear that if used only to decieve others of your accomplishments then it is a terrible thing to do. those in ministry should be above reproach like you and timothy say.

i just hope that those who may not have a dr in front of their name wouldn't be seen any less than, as far as their effectiveness as a minister goes. there are a great many wonderful men of God who have no formal training that serve the Lord with all of there hearts and do a darn nice job of it. God is the one who ordains anyway.

 

===

Thanks for responding. You are absolutely correct. . As I just said:

"One does not need to be called 'Dr" to be a servant."

One can be a terrific minister and have little formal education. My doctoral studies are very, very technical (I don't understand them myself!!!-ha, ha) . But, because they deal with The Obedient Son, I hope I learn to emulate that. But the DTh will not make me a "better" person or servant.

Grace to you,

 

i would definately think that if you have a problem that has something to do with the body of Christ then don't air it out here. There are all kinds of people here and I wouls think it would be best to get some advice in private, not on a public site. maybe you should private message some folks here. This could become a divisive issue.

 

Is the church happy with the minister? Is he doing a good job? Is he appropriately educated? Does he seem inspired? Is he sincere? If so, don't do anything. Let the man continue God's work. I've seen too many ministers with great credentials absolutely butcher the gospels and create new doctrine by deleting contraversial portions of scripture. If this guy is good, and he holds true to the complete Word, leave him be.

 

I agree. There are many people here who have great hearts and minds...intellectuals through and through, but IMO a select few of their efforts to rid the world of every unacredited school regardless of discipline and shame every degree holder who may have found some avenues of acceptance with their UA degrees at times crosses the line into a type of academic swat unit. (Insert Bad Boys theme music here...whatcha gonna do when they come for you?)

IMO if we fire or force to resign those ministers who have anything less than a RA degree perhaps greater than 50% of churches in the United States alone would be without pastors/ministers. Extend that to the USDOE National Accreditors and it would probably increase to about 70%. This is of course taking into account churches of all sizes and locations and not just those who can financially afford to pay for the pastor with the RA doctorate or to go and get one.

Like Bill I agree it does not take a "Dr." to be a servant. But when will the church learn that it needs a servant and not a Dr? When will the 25 member congregation learn that it does not have to have a Dr. to compete with the 1000 member church in their city? When will the respect the learning of a pastor and not refer to him as a jackleg or bootleg preacher because he does not have a degree? In 16 years I have never had one single church say they did not care if their preacher did not have a degree...no degree, the resume goes in the trash can. That usually becomes the second criteria by which they judge whteher or not that minister will get a hearing or an interview. The type of school (Brick and Mortar), the degree field, the percieved racial identity of the school in my limited experience with both ministers and churches across this country in my denomination play a greater part in acceptance than whether or not the school is RA or not.

When it comes to religious schools only and religious degrees (professional not academic) there must be some pause as well as some tact. What is the degree to be used for? What is the comparative quality of that program to a local RA or TRACS program? Is it a professional ministry degree or an academic ministry degree? Is it a "school of prophets" that morphed into a college, or was it an intended alternative low cost college from the outset? Is the school legally registered in the state that it operates under a religious exempt clause or provision? Was the school upfront with the prospective student before enrolling as to utility or the lack thereof? Was the minister upfront with the pastor and the church about the degree and why he went to that particular school? Does the church know about the unaccredited nature of the degree and it's limitation especially in the world of academia? Is it a denomination sponsored school which much to the chagrin of many in this forum may be more important to the church than to say the degree is RA? Is the minister waiting to get financially stable before returning back to school? Is the minister willing to go back to school if the church requires it of him?

As has already been mentioned in this forum there are varying levels of opinion as to the worth/value of unaccredited schools just as there are varying opinions of accredited schools, their accreditor (RA vs Detc vs TRACS vs ATS vs AABC) and their relative utility. A recent thread has even bashed a RA acreditor (the gold standard mind you) because they have dared to consider extending accreditation to a school that has been throughly torn apart in this forum as a substandard school by some, a mill by others. Not without reason mind you, but is what they are saying is once a mill/substandard school will always and forever be a mill so there is never any hope for redemption short of closing down totally?

Congrats on your degrees. Keep on working your tail off to please Him who called you to be a soldier.

 

Send me a PM or e-mail me with the name of the ordaining body and the schools from which the degrees are from. There is a tactful christian way to deal with this.

 

Thanks

I really appreciate all your input and comments with regard to this situation. I do agree with a couple of the posts that have been added on here. The posts have indicated that it seems to come down to the purpose of what this associate minister is using his credentials. This church has accepted him into this position. Although, the credentials are from a mail order ministry and the degrees are from unaccredited schools, such should be respected and accepted. If this associate minister was going to be using them into academia, then chances are that this would not be respected or accepted. So, I appreciate the time that you have devoted to this discussion, and since this associate minister seems to be doing a fine job, then I will let it be. I really have no right to interfere with this decision that the church has made. I have come to the conclusion that if someone has received ordination or degrees in a religious manner, no matter where they’re from, I will respect those credentials. However, in academia or secular circles, such would not be the norm. I guess this is why they say there is separation of church and state, and who I am to interfere with this man of God. Thanks again, and have a good day.

 

Re: Thanks

 

Points well enough taken, but since the UA school is unknown we're all just whistlin' Dixie on the guy's motives or the merits (or otherwise) of the questioned degrees.

 

Your questions depend on three questions:

1. Where did he earn his degree?

2. Who ordained him?

3. Did the church check out his credentials?

 

Bill said: I would say , "Look, here's the deal: You are doing a fine job. But, calling yourself a 'doc' ,when you are not, is really dishonest. And our God is a God of TRUTH-right? Why not take that title of doc off your business card and off your wall? You don't need it ,and it is false."

The issue would not be canning the person but canning the "doc."


I say: I agee. I think the original poster said the degree was "mail order." If that's really the case, it should be left off his credentials.

 

So I guess Jesus was reproachable. He was called Rabbi. Rabbi, as you know, means 'Teacher." "Doctor," as you know, also means "Teacher."

Maybe when He studied with the Essenes they were the GAAP of His day.

 

I'm in Thailand and found many monk in buddhist religion got Dr. from unaccredite religion school. I don't know why that such of monk want to be Dr. and not shame to use title "Dr". In buddhist religion we have our level path of knowledge and I will respect that monk if he can follow each step that Buddha had set. The monk who use worthless degree and use title "Dr" look like rubbish in religion.