The PhD/DBA Jungle

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by kelben, Feb 3, 2004.

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  1. kelben

    kelben New Member

    This post is about some of the problems one might encounter when looking for a relative cheap, but decent PhD/DBA.

    Background.
    I have a BA and MA from good European universities and have just completed a DETC MBA in 4-5 month, just for fun. BUT I am now looking for a PhD/DBA at 100% DL, because I work a lot and can’t relocate because of an expensive wife and too much family, so I need a university with no demand at all about residency. I can’t apply for normal governments paid PhD, because of work.

    My search started in this great forum with reading and then began my search.

    UK.
    I used the HERO homepage (http://www.hero.ac.uk/universities_and_colleges/listing.cfm) as base for looking at UK universities. This resulted in a net list with 10-15 universities. I wrote them a mail with a few questions, downloaded the program and so on. Most universities haven’t replied yet, so how is the guidance? The next time-consuming issue is that every university use own formula for reference, so I have to send “tons of them” to my list of academic references – Strange system. This option is cheap for me as EU citizen, but I have already got 2-3 failed application, because they don’t have any specialists within the area of HRM.

    Rest of Europe.
    To make it short – Most universities don’t have real 100% DL and/or are way too expensive.

    South Africa.
    I took contact with the top 5 universities in SA (The list is somewhere in this forum), but they are even slower than the British, so I doubt in can work as DL. Most of them demand local currency for applying, but I can’t use local current with a VISA card, so my bank must perform an expensive SWIFT transaction. This is just the start! I have received a reply from most of them, but I was so demanding to write back and am still waiting at the mailbox for a reply.

    India.
    India sounded like the Wild West with cheap prices and good quality, but most universities don’t have a program at decent quality for remote – location students and/or its difficult for find the proper information and/or get email replies. I did transfer money to one of them in order to get the application form, but I didn’t get any or got any replies from my daily emails, almost SPAM.

    Australia.
    I took contact with a few, but most of them are too expensive and/or don’t have 100% DL + they seem to suffer from the common disease of “not readings emails”.

    USA.
    I am not American, but they are quit fast at responding, so I am looking at the West again. My problem is just that most of them (You all know them) are too expensive, so NCU is my only choice at the moment and I dislike this situation – read the forum and you will know why.

    Any advice or help in order to get moving would be great.

    Klaus
     
  2. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    There is a Ferengi poster who can address the expensive wife.

    Is the degree for work/career purposes? Does accreditation matter?
     
  3. duff

    duff New Member

  4. Ken Wong

    Ken Wong member

    Try University of Newcastle, Australia

    I joined their DBA program last month, it's an online program. They shipped me the books and materials by DHL and there's an online website using the Blackboard e-learning system.

    Check out http://www.gradschool.com.au

    or http://www.newcastle.edu.au

    Good luck!
     
  5. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    It has been previously demonstrated by at least two members that the South African schools seem to respond much better to telephone inquiries. Buy yourself a good calling card, set your alarm clock and make the calls. Otherwise you may wait forever and never know if you missed a good opportunity. Good luck.
    Jack
     
  6. triggersoft

    triggersoft New Member

    @ Klaus.

    Where are you from? Germany, Austria, NL, ...?

    I´m from Germany and I never had problems with my local VISA card to make transactions to and in foreign countries (you should ask your bank or get a Citibank account or so...).

    Besides, I´m pretty much in the same situation, so that I can at least give you one recommendation if you´re from Germany or Austria: do not even think about getting a NCU doctorate or (almost) any other "only regionally" accredited degree from the States, you will never get it "nostrificated" in these countries (=you will not be allowed to use the degree legally here!).

    Regarding price, I am also checking SA universities, but my experience is the same: no answers yet... ;(

    Best regards,

    Trigger
     
  7. kelben

    kelben New Member

    Hi triggersoft,

    I am Danish and my bank told me that the VISA issues is because of the B - currency in SA. I have no problems using major currencies.

    Accreditation "does matter" (DETC or better), because I do some work for some of the Universities.

    Thanks Jack Tracey, Ken Wong and Duff - I will look into your advices within minutes....
     
  8. triggersoft

    triggersoft New Member

    Hi Klaus.

    Keep me informed if you like (we could exchange e-mail addresses via the board´s Private Message system) - seems we kind of have the same problems.

    (actually, I could do a brick-and-mortar docorate in the EU currently, which I initially planned, but I am beginning to reconsider this since I simply do not seem to like purely empirical-theoretical work. Consequently, I think a DBA would suit me better than a PhD)

    I checked University of Newcastle (AUS) just a minute ago, but there is too much coursework in my opinion - the other Aussie schools normally just want 4 classes coursework (the research prep courses) before beginning with the dissertation, Newcastle wants additional 4 regular Management classes... ;(

    Best regards,
    T.
     
  9. kelben

    kelben New Member

    triggersoft,

    It sounds like a very good idea - My mail is [email protected], so please forward your mail adress in the near future, so we can keep in contact.

    ------

    I got one mail about my DETC MBA and I took it at CSU

    http://www.columbiasouthern.edu/

    They are really friendly people, but only DETC, so it was fairly easy...
     
  10. triggersoft

    triggersoft New Member

    Just sent you a mail.

    IIRC the DETC do not offer any Doctoral programs, right?

    Greets,
    T.
     
  11. chris

    chris New Member

    Triggersoft is confused....

    We do not have national accreditation similar to Europe. I knew several people in Germany with American degrees working either professionally or in academia. Regional accreditation is the gold standard in the USA and any reputable university here has it. Professional accreditation is a sometimes necessary supplement in the USA but it is supplement that is only now reaching the continent so I would not imagine it would be much of an issue there. Triggersoft is a lot confused and you would be better served listening to many others on this board. He appears to be somewhat a Europhile in his views of education.
     
  12. chris

    chris New Member

    Klaus, I recommend you stay on the continent or with SA

    If cost is an issue with you, as it appears to be from your previous posts, now is not a good time to go with a US school. The US dollar is very low against the Euro right now and if you think schools here are expensive it can only get worse if the dollar rises. Going to a school in England would have the added benefit of stability cost wise. SA schools are also very inexpensive due to the Rand's position in the money market but it would have to rise a lot to approach US or European prices so they would be a safe bet as well. Another option for you may be in Holland, Neyenrode, Nimbas and Maastrich appear to have DBA's which may be done while working full time. They would require some visits to the campus but that should not be a problem for you. Good luck.
     
  13. triggersoft

    triggersoft New Member

    Re: Triggersoft is confused....

    ;)

    Yes, Old Europe rules!

    Just kidding, my friends - Chris, I guess I know a lot more about US accreditation than the vast majority of Europeans, including folks from Academia and Business life, believe me. I also know pretty well that (almost) every reputable US university has RA, but the ones being considered as top-notch in our eyes are those that additionally also have AACSB or whatever professional accreditation in its special field.

    RA is nothing more than European NATIONAL STATE APPROVAL (and quality ensurance), if you compare the systems.

    The whole "RA is gold standard" thing may therefore be correct in your eyes, sadly it is simply not in my (European) ones. Rankings from all over the world say that about 80 % of US universities are sub-standard. A few hundreds on the other side are without any doubt very good and respectable schools, whereas from these few hundred there are again the Ivy leagues schools, the Top 50 or so from US News & World Report rankings and some additional top (some even state) universities. THOSE SCHOOLS surely have the same, and some dozen or so even a far better quality than the average German or British or Danish or Dutch or whatever (old) EU school. Nobody doubts that. We do not have any Harvard or Yale or MIT over here, maybe only some good MBA schools + Oxbridge and the Sorbonne. That´s all.
    But on average, the EU schools are ALL far above the US average. Just read statistics and newspapers, especially academic ones.

    DETC ist sub-standard in terms of European (academic) eyes,
    and MOST of the RA schools are also sub-standard, a lot below our average.

    That is the only reason why I wanted to give my country-neighbour Klaus some valueable hints before he gets into serious problems with his US degree in the EU which happens to dozens, hundreds of people who might even behave illegal with leading their US degrees. I wanted to help, that´s all.

    Btw, I studied one exchange semester at UCLA, so I know pretty well how excellent some US schools are...

    Anyhow,
    each one should do what´s best for him - that might include DETC or some of the below-average RA schools, that´s one´s own decision.

    And: Nyenrode, Maastrich Universiteit or NIMBAS - the ones you list - are European top schools and would be FOR SURE also Top 100 in the US... ;) Good hint!

    T.
     
  14. chris

    chris New Member

    I lived in Europe for 12 years..

    all of it in Germany. My daughters were born there and are dual nationals. Yes, Germany is very nationalistic in regards to their schools. However, it would not be "illegal" to use any RA accredited school degree there. Most of the ranking you see don't even address the schools outside of the US News & World Report category of national research university. The US has thousands of universities and most have foreign students but never hit the radar on most surveys outside the USA. My daughter goes to a small regional school that has a very good local reputation but is not well known at all outside of Illinois or Missouri. However, she does have fellow students who come from the continent and even Germany. As far as rankings go, there was one on this board recently that seemed to refute your statement that 80% of USA schools are substandard. It was posted in an article in The Economist. US schools educate the world even a lot of Germans. We had a German dentist for a while that was entirely educated in the US. When I asked him why he got his education here he stated it was because German dental schools were behind the times. I can attest to that after having 2 German dentists ruin one of my daughters teeth. Am I nationalistic? A little, but at least mine is based on more than a short visit to your country. I knew a couple of German professors and a lot of students from Mannheim and Heidelbrg. Nearly all either had or planned on doing some studies in the USA. I knew 2 professors in Heidelberg that were American and had US degrees. Germany has good schools but not all are the best in the world. When I left in 1994, there was a lot of controversy concerning Universities and from the Economist article I see it has not changed. The German government has always been somewhat bureaucratic and slow to change an it appears to be that way in their university system.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2004
  15. triggersoft

    triggersoft New Member

    Re: I lived in Europe for 12 years..

    Certainly yes.
    Any Non-EU degree (that would also count for a Harvard or Duke MBA or PhD) that is used in Germany by residents (including foreign residents) has to be officially "nostrificated" by the Ministry of Science and Education in the specific state.
    It is strictly illegal and called "Titelmißbrauch" ("misleading of a degree"), and not misdemeanor, but moreover a serious element of an offense!
    (That does of course not count for business people from abroad being in Germany for just a short period of time - they are allowed to use their degrees...).
    And that has been so since the 19th century! (therefore including the 12 years you have been living here...).
    Am I nationalistic?
    No.
    Do I know about the law?
    Yes.
    Am I convinced that German universities are top notch?
    Not all all.
    Maybe a hand full is, maybe not even that.
    But I am convinced that German universities are quite strong and at least averagely on the same level - by law - a thing that US universities are not.
    I know a lot of people who graduated from US schools, Americans, Germans, British, whatever. They all say that the AVERGAE RA US university is a lot weaker than the average German university. A former professor of mine graduated from a San Diego RA university, and he says German "Fachhochschule" (=Polytechnic) education is worth more (in terms of what you learn) than his US PhD.
    You are right that my first hand US educational experience is not so sophisticated as yours, but on the other hand I have been studying at 2 German universities, 1 German Polytechnic, 1 Dutch university, 1 Australian university and 1 Austrian university (the last two ones contemporarily) - plus UCLA. So at least I can claim first hand that the German unis were quite high in standard, so was UCLA (more quantity of work there!), comparing all of them...
    To sum up, some of the world´s finest - if not THE FINEST - unis are in the US.
    But some of the least are also.
    As a result, I personally would never consider DETC or a rather big amount of the RA schools als "quality" schools - compared to EU universities.
    That´s all.
    Greets,
    Trigger
     
  16. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    Chris,

    Although I generally agree with the Economist article's content, I must say as well that Triggersoft has a point as well. An RA degree from the US has to be validated here prior to its use, especially if conferred in certain areas like medicine, civil enginering or achitecture, to name just a few. And the convalidation is not automatic........

    I have lived a long time in the US, where i got my undergraduate degree, and I have studied both in Europe and the States (my master's is from a Dutch University). I believe, and this is just my opinion, that American education is better since it has in general better and *more* teachers, better labs. better sport facilites, the student seems to be the center. However, university education in Europe is definitely harder, one needs to know (memorize) more to pass, while American traditional education seem to be more effective, and built around the student. Which system is better? I don't think experts would agree on that.

    Regards
     
  17. chris

    chris New Member

    A fachochschule isn't ....

    even in the same league as most RA research universities. They are much more narrow focused, smaller and focus on applied technology. To compare one to a PHD is a little like comparing apples and oranges. For that matter, most German universities are really graduate schools along the lines of the US News & World Report category of national research university. To compare them with say, Western Illinois University wouldn't work as WIU is not a research university and has few or no doctorate programs. However, in its sector it is a very good school. To make matters more confusing, within our research universities there is a lot of variance in their schools. SIU Carbondale is a USN&WR tier 4 school. However, it's medical school is considered the best in the USA in the General Practice field. It's Anthropology program is also top notch. These schools are simply too big to use a broad brush ranking on them.

    I have read many of your posts in the past and you always base your judgement of quality on testing. No, in America we do not have the massive end of year or semester testing similar to schools in the rest of the world but that is not a weakness it is one of our strengths. Quizes and mid-terms allow me as an instructor to focus on the students who need a little extra help. This does not happen to a student in your system they would just fail. This has led to a justifiable criticism that your schools are more of a certification system than educational systems. The professors show up, lecture anonymously to a large group of students and then leave. A "Herr Doctor" in Germany is a highly respected title and many of them have ego's to match. The Economist article specifically attacked the German university system in this regard.

    It is in fact the structure of the German university system that has been under fire for years. It relies on the Gymnasium as feeder schools and the whole system of secondary education in Germany poorly serves a young persons development stages. Deciding at 12 what educational track a child will pursue is ridiculous!!! I had a brother in law who was a gymnasium lehrer in Kempten and he firmly agreed with that statement. It is a holdover from the old class structure in Germany of 100 years ago. Hopefully, there have been some changes made in the past 10 years in that regard.

    As a whole, EU schools are changing in a way that will bring them closer to the US model than to their current structure. For example, the MBA is a US creation that is starting to become more common on the Continent but has only moved into Germany in the last decade.

    As for your friend's opinion and nostrification, in 1990 I had a German man tell me with a straight face that after unification Germany would be "the richest most powerful country in the world". I asked him if he really believed that. He said yes and I left him to his naivete. But it does prove how many people (American's too) view their country through rose tinted glasses. Germany is a wonderful country and has many fine institutions. I miss it every day. (Just one day skiing Obertsdorf and I would be in heaven!!) However, it also has glaring problems and these are reflected in its schools. They are fine schools but are by no means better than 80% of our RA institutions. In most cases one cannot make a real comparison because they are a different category of school. However, where a comparison can be made German schools usually would come out on the short end of the stick due to declining infrastructure and equipment. My daugher's regional university has a brand spanking new engineering school that would be the envy of almost any school in the world and it is a very small school when compared to a German university.

    I'll leave it at that as I don't want to appear to critical of German schools. But neither do I blindly accept them as better than 80% of USA RA institutions.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2004
  18. kelben

    kelben New Member

    Thanks Chris for good advice and Tigger for keeping this debate alive with good input.

    I was not intending to make this tread into another debate about DETC/RA/accretion, but more a practical one about making some decisions.

    I been in Cambridge (UK), but I did still take a DETC MBA (Just for fun). I know from the recruitment section that most firms have zero knowledge about these issues and most firms don’t really care, as long as we are talking about sort kind of quality and American silver is still decent in Europe for an MBA, but not for a PhD or DBA degree, because I must have use in the academic environment – Anywhere, anytime.

    My concern is that I don’t have the time to do a full - time degree at some hot shot university and have to pay the next degree with own money at present. I do have cash for paying, but I hate paying too much for too little, so its more a concern about getting most value for my hard earned money (We pay 60+% in income tax, so…).

    Regards,
     
  19. chris

    chris New Member

    This is not a DETC/RA debate

    Personally, I would not get a DETC degree for anything but a certificate or technical diploma. However, a DETC is not a diploma mill by any means and if it fills one's career goals they have a right to choose it. Neither am I blindly recommending a US RA school as I recommend in your situation you go with a Euro based school. However, Trigger's uninformed and incorrect blanket statements needed some correction.

    Neither did I deny a degree needs to be validated. That happens in the US as well. However, Trigger indicated that 80% of US RA schools are substandard and their degrees would be illegal to use in Germany. That was pure uninformed gibberish.
     

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