Hi everyone: I'm brand new to the board and have browsed it a bit, but wanted to ask some specific questions about obtaining a JD degree online. I have a BA from a California State University and am interested in furthering my education via DL, but I need some objective opinions on the reality of what these schools offer. I've researched Concord Law and NWCU a bit, and have even applied to Concord, but I was suspicious at how eager they seemed to be to have me attend. Naturally any attorney I know who attended an ABA school scoffs and tells me I'm wasting my time and money, but the reality of my situation is that I cannot sell my home, quit my job, and move to a larger town to attend school full time. I realize that job opportunities are limited to those holding non-ABA JD's, but I wanted to get some frank thoughts and opinions on just HOW limited they are. I've heard everything from "nobody will ever hire you" to "nobody cares where you went to school once you pass the bar," both of which I'm sure are false. I realize it's probably somewhere more in the middle, but does anyone have any experiences, thoughts, or opinions to share? I'd be very grateful. Thanks in advance! Ann
Hi Ann, Welcome! I'm not a lawyer (nor do I play one on TV), but it's an option I am looking at sometime in the next couple of years. As I'm in NY, the DL route doesn't work for me so I'll end up sticking to ABA, probably via a part-time night program, but ultimately it depends on how (or if) you plan to practice. I'm sure that others will chime in who have already obtained their JD. From the research I did it seems that many people like Concord because they don't really intend on practicing law but want the JD degree to further their career in an existing field. There are many discussions found on DegreeInfo that you can review, so I won't mention this further. Others will ultimately end up in small law firms in CA - either as a one-person practice or joining a small group of other lawyers. Often these people have a lot of vertical industry experience and therefore can leverage prior knowledge and contacts. For example, if you were an expert in labor relations and then passed the bar you could market yourself to firms specializing in labor law. Ditto for significant IT experience and a firm that specializes in computer law. It seems to me that if one is a recent graduate with no experience, new to the job market, and looking to join a prestigious law firm that the likely response is "nobody will hire you" rather than "nobody cares once you pass the bar" unless you have some pretty serious contacts. Note that this isn't limited to DL - even within ABA schools there is snobbery pertaining to Tiers - a Tier 1 school (Columbia) in NY is much more preferable than Tier 3 (Hofstra) or Tier 4 (Touro), borne out in the statistics by starting salaries, % who found jobs after graduation, etc. There's not enough data for the DL programs yet but my hunch is that at best they're Tier 4-equivalent (after passing the bar), or fall into a "Tier 5" category. Of course, there's nothing stopping you from hanging a shingle and setting up your own practice, even part-time once you pass the bar with a Concord JD. With some independent success you could then join a firm (taking your clients with you) in a few years... Cheers, Mark
Thanks Mark. That definitely gives me some perspective. Just to clarify, I completed my BA in 1998, and did some post-grad work at the same university. I've got several years of experience in the wireless and internet industry, and have always been interested in cyberlaw and intellectual property law. It seems that if I opt to keep my current job and pursue an online JD part-time, I could quite realistically "hang a shingle" and start my own part-time practice in California once I'd passed the bar. I searched through the board for other discussions about Concord and NWCU and found that the pushy, "car salesman" feeling I was getting from Concord is quite common, and is a total turn-off. From what I've read it seems a JD degree from Concord or NWCU are identical in the eyes of the state bar examiners, and so I was wondering: other than the fact that Concord gets tons more press and has deeper pockets/better backing, is there any real difference in the two schools? I've seen several discussions about the tuition difference, and I was wondering if there was any basis whatsoever for it...because if I'm going to get a non-ABA degree, I think I'd rather get it for $8k than $32k. Any input on the differences is greatly appreciated! Ann
I'd look at the Baby Bar and Bar pass rates and let the numbers speak for themselves...although the sample size for both is pretty low compared to the CA ABA schools. In other words, if (hypothetically) School A has a bar pass rate of 15%, and School B a pass rate of 12%, there's not a lot of difference I could discern. If the difference was 45% vs. 22% then there may be some difference. Cheers, Mark
Mark: "As I'm in NY, the DL route doesn't work for me..." John: Unless you're really adventurous. Last time I checked, NY was one of the eight states where it was still possible to qualify for the bar by the Abe Lincoln method: private study with a lawyer or judge. Mark: Check baby bar and bar pass rates. John: Definitely yes. And also look at trends. Seems to me that Concord may be on a slope in the wrong direction, while Taft is rising, and Oak Brook remains at the top where they've been for years, among the distance programs.
I did catch that (even read the details), but if I should go ahead will be doing it part-time, so it's easier to go with ABA. I'd be interested to see how many people do this nowadays...probably still a few located in the "backwoods" of NY. Being someone who for the first 10 years in the US had his employment limited via work visas, I'm loathe to choose a law education option that limits where I can work in the future.
Well, don't let price be determinative of your decision ( 8 vs 32k). If you're going into DL law (recognizing all the inherent limitations and liabilities to doing so), get the best education available-- not looking at the Baby Bar or the full Bar, but in terms of preparing you for practice as a lawyer. Nor are Baby Bar pass rates the end-all of legal education. Quite frankly, you could spend $1200 on a Bar Bri course and learn enough to pass the full bar exam. What you are looking for in a law school (B&M or DL) is the substantive education that will prepare you for your ultimate job, assuming the degree sought is more than a vanity degree. Check into each program and the substance learned. Look at their modes of teaching (do they sell you a reading list and exams, or do you get "more" for your dollar?, etc.) See if the school's way of doing things (and in the DL world it's highly varied) is comensurate with your way of learning. Some students do well with a reading list and minimal interaction with professors and fellow students; others do better with lectures on tape; others need video lectures; others need lots of profesor contact; etc. Talk to students. Try to find some out in the real world that have graduated (perhaps thru the CA bar?) and ask them how their education trained them for the actual practice of law. In the law, perhaps more so than in any other field, much of your professional identity is wrapped around your choice of school, so choose wisely! That said, also look at the plethora of night programs at ABA schools; perhaps there's one available locally or somewhere you might want to relocate to?
True, New York will accept apprenticeship as a legal education foundation. Careful study of the rules 520.4(2) say that you must matriculate in a ABA law school for a year. Better, but not perfect. Vermont, Virginia have better plans with straight up apprenticeships. Apprenticeship and a California DL in this case looks like a awesome strategy.
I too have looked into the possibility of a Concord admission, passed the screening and sent my transcripts. After, the screening, the pressure to send $1$$$, of the 7$$$ tuition was very substantial. Concord was my first look, and was without any other research. After further consideration i chose not to pursue Concord because of price and results. The price is about 2x the amount of other DL law schools. They have to this point graduate only one class of lawyers, with a 60% pass rate on the bar. If they had several more years of similar results, the maybe they would receive further consideration. CA DL law schools worth considering, in my opinion are Oak Brook and Northwestern. Oak Brook has a very high, consitent, general bar, and baby bar pass rate. In fact, it is better than many ABA law schools. Price is 3$$$. They have a fundamentalist Christian world view, which for me was not a problem. Nortwestern California has good results also, price is about 2.5$$ after books. In either case, a good baby bar review and general bar reviews are in order. The attorney who handles litigations for me at work tells me that the bar review is equally important as your education when attempting the bar.
I recommend that, if there is any way to go ABA at your STATE school, DO IT! Even if the program is full time day, you should seriously consider doing it. I am, I admit, somewhat less enthusiastic about getting your JD from a PRIVATE school. $80-120,000 is an awful lot to spend on any JD degree.
Unfortunately, going to an ABA school is simply not feasible--I own a home and have a full-time job, not to mention I'm still paying off student loans from my BA. The university here does not offer a law program, so my only options are to quit my job, sell my house, and move, or to give DL a try. Not wanting to uproot my life, I'm going with the DL option! Thanks for all the info--I'm continuing to research the different programs and am starting to think NWCU is going to be my choice. Concord is too pushy and expensive, and their bar/baby bar passing rates seem to get lower every year. Also, the fundamentalist Christian world view at Oak Brook would be a major problem for me, so they're out of the running. Has anyone here actually received a JD from NWCU and passed the bar? I'd love to get feedback from someone who's had the experience. Ann
You got me looking, and looking at Northwestern's faculty, not exactly a bastion of legal talent there! Predominantly their own grads teach One thing Concord has going for it, they have a lot of legal heavyweights like Arthur Miller and the old WestBar review crew teaching via canned lectures. As for the "car salesman" approach, that also seems endemic to the competitive world of DL, especially with the small outfits that are running pretty close to the margin. Once you make a monetary committment, psychologically, you're less willing to rethink your decision. I inquired at Waldren about 2 years ago, and still get mailings, emails, and an occasional phone call. I ended up doing a psych MS from a quality APA school that has a DL component, and they also are very much into the "give us the money" approach, nothwithstanding their credibility and respectibility. Foer example, in September, they started hounding for the Winter term's tuition, despite it starting in January!
If you want a long history like NWCU and accreditation like Concord, look at Taft. They have been around since the late 1970s and their tuition is about 30% less than Concord. I like the fact that they list over 100 graduates/attorneys on their website. I agree with the comment that if you can possibly attend an ABA school, do it.
I really have serious and sustained doubts about Concord. They charge more, WAAAAY more than my school, (the University of New Mexico) charges for a degree that might be marginally more useful than the NWCU degree, due to DETC accreditation. I know Concord touts its canned lecture series with all those famous names, but so what? You don't actually have ACCESS to those famous names, as near as I can tell. I also know that they claim that their D/L approach is somehow brand new; maybe so, but again, so what? Does it really work any better than the more traditional California correspondence school? Well, the bottom line is, as always, what do you want to DO with your JD? I agree, BTW, with the analysis of Taft. David Boyd contributes regularly to this forum and I think he runs the place but has NEVER touted it.
I still think price should not be the end-all, even if one is willing to settle for a minimally-useful DL law degree. By that rationale, because a NWU degree is 5% the cost of a Stanford degree, and both lead to the same minimal result (a CA bar license-- or more precisely, eligibility to take the CA bar exam), then someone should go to NWU-- which obviously would be an ill-informed decision if one had that sort of choice available to them! IMHO, anyone serious about actually practicing law (versus learning about the law to supplement a curent career or intellectual curiosity) should not study law via DL. There's just so much more to the overall training experience than reading cases and taking exams. Especially since the end-result for DL grads is likely as a solo, and the DL grad will never receive the on-the-job training and mentorship available the traditional way, both in school, in clerkships, and after graduation. If one really wants to be a lawyer-- and earn a living doing so-- than they should treat law school as the professional training it is designed to be-- and do it right. If that means moving or quitting your job (which you apparently want to change anyway) to attend a real school, then do it. If that means borrowing, do it. It's an investment in your future; why short-change it by doing it half-"arsed"? You owe it to yourself, as well as any potential clients, who won't be especially pleased to learn that their lawyer took a casual approproach to professionalism! That said, if committed to DL, you might as well get the best training. I'd rather have a famous name lecturing than some schmuck. As for contact with the actual professor, in my experience at least, none of my law school professors could have picked me out of a lineup, and I graduated top 10%.
Where did you go to law school? My professors ALL maintained regular office hours. Being available was part of the job description. Actually, funny thing, but I am not so sure a person WOULD be "nuts" to do a D/L degree instead of Stanford if you went into law to work in the public sector and you had every intention of remaining in California for at least five years after admission. Public salaries are low, quite low, compared with the amount a Stanford grad can earn in private practice BUT you will work a literal sixty hour week to do it. The public sector pays everyone on the same schedule regardless of school. It is lot easier to be comfortable on a public salary if you DON'T owe $100,000 in student loans...
<I recommend that, if there is any way to go ABA at your STATE school, DO IT! Even if the program is full time day, you should seriously consider doing it. I am, I admit, somewhat less enthusiastic about getting your JD from a PRIVATE school. $80-120,000 is an awful lot to spend on any JD degree.> I'm currently debating this issue. I've been accepted to the evening programs at Georgetown & George Mason (still waiting for news from George Washington). I'm a VA resident, so could get the "cheap" tuition at GMU. I'm not interested in gov't work, and want to move to NY to a private firm--am really debating the whole issue.
Dr. Puffy: My friend took her JD from Georgetown. She got a good legal education, no doubt about it, but it WAS very expensive. Still, I was reading in a back edition of Insiders' Guide to Law Schools (a very interesting book, BTW) that a significant part of the legal world considers G'town to be the single best law school in America. It is certainly the best recognized school for lawers in the upper echelons of federal government. GMU also enjoys a good reputation. Of course, it all depends on what you want to do. If you crave the money and excitement of a NY big firm practice, APPLY TO HARVARD! Failing that, there's NYU and a handful of other business oriented schools. However, if you are like me, or for that matter, my friend, and you want a forty hour week plus benefits in a beautiful but basically impoverished Western state, go with GMU and keep those loans down. Good luck!
Oh, one other thing...if you want the NY business law career but you like nice weather, consider Stanford. I think it costs just a bit more than Georgetown and the Bay area has some of the nicest summers God ever created.
