Frustration with Touro PhD !

I came to this discussion tonight to hear exactly what is being said about TUI, and my suspicions are now confirmed!
I applied to TUI's Phd Business program in November, and hadn't heard a word. I could never get a response from the business school through email or phone message!

Quite discouraging for someone persuing a DL degree from a program where communication is critical..

I began to think something was wrong with the PhD program.
When I finally did get an email response, the answers to "status of my admission" questions were very evasive. Repeated attempts to simply get a confirmation of processing were never clearly answered. I was just informed after pressing the advisor for some kind of answer that many PhD programs can take up to a year for a decision on admission?
Is this in line with TUI's PhD prgram??

I am very frustrated as I had shopped around for what I thought would be the best Dl pHd business program. Very disappointed.

And now, no more applicants for the PhD program??

And tonight, problems with accreditation ? What's next?

I have decided to move on after valuable time has been lost.

I have been more than accomodated by other schools actually desirous of my attendance.

My only wish was that these advising offices and administrators would regard your desire for admission as highly as you do. A PhD program is not a passing fancy. Prospective students like myself have made life-altering decisions to pursue such an advanced degree. Adjustments need to be made, preparation needs to be done.
I haven't felt the slightest bit of concern from TUI.

Regards,
wise1
BBA, MBA

 

Don't think it is only TUI (though I think their's is a bit of circumstance right now). I had my bags packed and had unofficial acceptance to a program, when I received an e-mail the day before travel overseas that they reconsidered.

I chalk it up to a hard, but difficult learning experience (always get it in writing).

I also wouldn't not be in a great program, so things seem to work out.

BUT - I understand your frustrations.

Good luck!

 

Sorry to hear that TUI did not reply to your PhD application in time. That must be very frustrating.

Unfortunately, TUI stopped accepting new PhD students into several of their programs because they were full. The good news about the accreditation process is that TUI, a branch campus of Touro College, passed their part of the accreditation review just fine. Unfortunately, as you know, the main campus' B-school needs to hire more full-time faculty. (I guess the main campus didn't stop accepting applications soon enough.)

Best of luck with your search for another doctoral degree program. This board is a great place for information on different programs.

 

Below information was posted to a Yahoo discussion forum by someone who has read the accreditation statement:
This is taken from one of the Yahoo groups.

I have received the public disclosure statement and statement of accreditation status for Touro College/TUI from Middle States Commission on Higher Education. If you would like a copy of this please contact Margaret Robbins: MRobbins@m... They sent it free of charge.

Here is the gist of the situation:

Following an onsite visit, the institution was placed on probation in November 2003 and a monitoring report was requested by 3-01-04 prior to the conduct of an of a comprehensive evaluation visit to Touro College's main campus, documenting the steps taken and progress made to:

1. improve the quality, consistency, and rigor of the TUI doctoral
programs
2. address the staffing needs and faculty capacity issues for TUI
doctoral programs
3. develop and conduct and external review of TUI's doctoral programs
4. ensure the requirements for TUI doctoral programs are consistent
with an advanced level of study
5. revise the curriculum plan for the Touro University California (TUC)
PA/MPH program to describe goals and objectives and a timeline for
implementation
6. develop a staffing plan for TUC, particularly for the PA/MPH
program, and a research plan

"The commission also cautioned the institution with respect to the further
growth of all TUI programs, and doctoral student enrollments, pending the
spring 2004 evaluation visit to Touro College and action by the full
commission at its June 2004 meeting. Further the commission postponed action
on the continued inclusion of TUI and TUC within the scope of Touro
College's accreditation, pending the scheduled spring 2004 visit to Touro
College."

 

Wow! If this is true, then it is a bit of a concern. It's certainly not what I was told! Thanks for posting this.

 

It look slike there are two thread with the same discussion - WOW is right!

 

Maybe that is why they stopped accepting applicants into the doctoral programs.

 

Wise1 you may be lucky

Given the problems that TUI appears to have, you should consider yourself lucky that you didn't start a program with them.

Almost two years ago, I applied to the Business PHD program at TUI and was accepted in less than three days. I asked a few questions to which I didn't really like the answers, so I started a doctoral program at Capella. I am now in the dissertation phase of that program. I was able to do all the Capella residencies locally.

 

Hi Mathguy,

I am happy that you find a good home at Capella. It is a very good university. I do believe that we all in this forum are for distance learning programs. I just hope that TUI will fix its problems with MSA and get out of probation. I hope that you wish the same for TUI.

Best regards,

 

This could be political. It could also be "CYA" for the Middle States.

Remember what happened when Middle States decided to include TUI in Touro College's accreditation. John called Middle States, and told an official there that they'd just accredited the first 100% non-residential Ph.D. program in the U.S. Here response was along the lines of "Surely there are others." When informed that, no, this was the first, it didn't go over so well. Perhaps the Middle States Association is looking to get tought where it gave only a cursory glance before?

Of course, none of that changes the possibility that TUI has real problems.

Does anyone know the real nature of the relationship between TUI and Touro College? Is TUI for-profit? Does the not-for-profit Touro College own them? Are they separate legally with a contract between them? How much oversight does Touro have over TUI?

 

On another thread, this link was posted: http://plaza.unl.edu/distributed.nsf/pages/doctoral

If you link or scroll down to "Residency Provisions/On-Campus Experience" you'll see the following:

"University residency requirements of the completion of 27 hours in 18 months (or 24 hours in 24 months if employed in the major field) may be met by persistent and regular participation in the on-line coursework. Residency in Lincoln or on-campus coursework is not required to meet this residency requirement. While not an absolute requirement, the ELHE program very strongly recommends that each student in the program have an On-Campus Experience."

And at: http://extended.unl.edu/student/accreditation.html

"The University of Nebraska-Lincoln has been accredited by the North Central Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools since the association first started accrediting colleges and universities in 1913."

Pretty good deal there, too: UG = $128.25 and G=$169.75 per SH.

I find it interesting that a state school (University of Nebraska - Lincoln) has a 100% virtual Ph.D.

This leads me to think that other 100% virtual Ph.D.'s may be in our future.

Gary

 

My take

Like I have said in another thread, TC's accreditation (which includes TUI) will be restored but TUI may be required to make some changes. TUI is the first 100% non-residency doctoral program in MSA's jurisdiction. I think that this will eventually change to include a couple of weeks of on-compus visits.

Ike

 

Does anyone know if MSA has ever revoked an RA status from a school.

 

Re: My take

This is just a questoin for my own personal interest. Why is it generally considered necessary to have an on campus residency for a doctoral program, when it's considered perfectly acceptable to grant masters degrees and lower without a residency ?

 

This really fries me!!!

That Touro has allowed this to happen. I almost went with this &#$*( university, until I started talking to my PhD friends in academia. Their univeral reaction was "??? Where's that?"

Incidentally, they all knew about Capella, Phoenix, even Excelsior. But Touro drew a huge blank stare.

That did it for me right then - I abandoned any plans to ever go there, and I'm glad I made the right choice.

On a kinder, gentler note - for the sake of the students who placed their trust in this board's steady recommendation of Touro as a "great place, no books to buy" kind of distance learning institution - let's all hope they do something quickly to resolve their conundrum around accreditation.

And, yes, the regional accreditors do sometimes pull accreditation altogether, but that's usually the kiss of death for a small, private institution - like Touro.

Good luck to all those who trusted in Touro, and degreeinfo "experts" who steered them there.


(by the way, I mistakenly posted this - probably cuz I was so angry - on its own thread so you'll read this diatribe more than once. My apologies.)

 

I began to look like a person who defends the undefendable, my poor TUI. However, here is the list of universities placed on probation by the Commission on Colleges of the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools at its meeting on December 8, 2003.

Life University, Marietta, Georgia
St. Augustine's College, Raleigh, North Carolina
Texas College, Tyler, Texas
The University of Texas at Arlington, Arlington, Texas
Auburn University, Auburn, Alabama
The University of West Alabama, Livingston, Alabama
Hiwassee College, Madisonville, Tennessee

With the exception of The University of Texas at Arlington (23,821 students) and Auburn University (23,152 students), Touro College has more students than the other colleges on probation at SACS (over 15,000 students). It is no longer a small institution. I do believe Touro College's main problem is based on the fact that it is growing too fast. The authority of regional accredited agencies have on their accredited schools is the main reason why I chose them over degree mills. I do believe MAC’s action is good for Touro in the long run.

 

Re: This really fries me!!!

I don't think that members of this board ever mislead... they tell their stories and opinions.

Who do consider "experts" - those who post a great deal? Those who have several degrees?

Anyway, I heard from this board , and just started at another school, which shows everybody is responible for their own decisions.

I understand your frustrations, but don't blame those who are not guilty of anything but honest opinions.

One last thing - this board is great about pointing out when someone does post mis-information, so please realize the difference in opinions and fact.

 

How many of these schools are on probation for the quality of their programs?

 

This, I think, is an excellent question. If we are to believe our fellow member "tesch," then we would have to say that the answer is, "None." He maintains, apparently via Dr. Borchers, that the Regional Accrediting agencies pay no attention to the quality of programs but only to "the processes" that universities undertake. No one has been willing to define this term "processes" in this context and neither tesch nor Dr Borchers has been willing to address the issues related to the obvious implications of their statements . . . if RA does not examine and evaluate the quality of educational programs, but instead, only examines "processes" then what is it that really distinguishes RA from non-RA programs. Obviously, in regards to kristies question above, if the RA process does not examine the quality of the various educational programs (but only the "processes" of the school [whatever that means], then how is one to "know" that there is a significant difference between RA and non-RA schools?
Jack
(please understand that I do not personally subscribe to this idea and maintain that there is a significant difference between RA and non-RA schools)
Oh yes, here's the link to the previous discussion:
http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11485

 

Jack - A reply to your interesting post. The context of the original discussion seemingly raised the question - How could a school be RA when one particular course seems pretty weak? My point is that RA evaluators don't tend to get as deep in the specifics of a program as professional accreditors do.

Regards - Andy

I wouldn't say "None". But I can give some perspective, having been through RA and professional accreditation visits. RA visits tend to focus on the institution as a whole, including how the institution is organized and operated. Professional accreditors focus on specific programs and look much more closely at a specific set of educational offerings of the school.

North Central puts it this way:

"An institutional accrediting agency evaluates an entire educational
organization in terms of its mission and the agency’s
standards or criteria. It accredits the organization as a whole.
Besides assessing formal educational activities, it evaluates
such things as governance and administration, financial stability,
admissions and student services, institutional resources,
student learning, institutional effectiveness, and relationships
with internal and external constituencies.

A specialized accrediting body evaluates particular units,
schools, or programs within an organization. Specialized
accreditation, also called program accreditation, is often
associated with national professional associations, such as
those for engineering, medicine, and law, or with specific
disciplines, such as business, teacher education, psychology,
or social work."

For example, a recent RA visit to a university I worked at (enrollment of 4,000 in four schools) included a team of four "consultant-evaluators" who came to town on Sunday and left by Wednesday noon. Prior to arrival on campus the group reviewed our self study - which was focused on process items such as assessment and institutional finances and governance.

One evaluator was a business school type who visited the management program for a day or so. He did do some looking at syllabi, reviewed documentation and talked with some of the faculty. However, he didn't have curriculum standards to measure courses by - he was looking at things like whether graduate and undergraduate courses were differentiated, how the school developed curriculum, etc. Other members of the team visited other departments, typically for a day or so. The school's financial information was also examined. In a general meeting with the faculty, the group focused on process and educational methodology questions - faculty governance, the role of part-time faculty, support for new teaching methods, assessment, etc.

I wouldn't say that the RA folks didn't consider the educational "product" at all. But their focus was largely on the process of institutional governance. The outcome of RA visits are accreditation for the institution as a whole - not for specific programs.

A professional accreditation visit by a business school accreditor brought two individuals who spent two days on campus. These sorts of visits (and related self studies) get more detailed - reviews of credentials of faculty, evaluation of curriculum, review of specific outcome assessment measures, etc.

A visit by another professional accreditor (ABET) involved a four person team. They had one person for each of the engineering departments my school has (e.g. Mechanical, electrical, etc.). ABET looked in detail at curriculum design and course descriptions using their standards. They also had a process focus, looking closely at things like assessment.

By way of comparison - consider a topic like faculty selection and credentials. RA visitors would typically focus on how the school went about selecting facutly, with some consideration of whether there are an appropriate number and variety of faculty members. I've seen professional accreditors, however, actually review faculty member transcripts and count hours in areas of study. AACSB and ACBSP, for example, categorize faculty as "professional" or "doctoral" qualified and sets minimum percentages. RA bodies don't go to this extreme.

I'm reminded of a comment John Bear makes every so often about ISO 9000. He says that a firm could be ISO certified to make cement life jackets. As long as their processes are in order, they can be certified - even though the product obviously has a poor fitness for use.

I don't think that RA is this bad. They do consider the quality of educational programs. However, I do see more of a "process" focus on the part of the RA bodies and more of a "product" focus on the part of professional accreditors. The definition from NCA above seems to suggest this.