I'm currently in the Edinburgh Business School MBA program and have been reading about the school's new DBA program. Has anyone on the forum checked into this program? I would be curious to know how it compares to others that people have researched or are enrolled in. Thanks Tracey
I too would be interested in how this program is percieved by the board members. I reviewed the website for this program and was quite impressed. I really like the program structure.
From what I understand, the DBA has a specific emphasis on Strategy. So it might be the perfect choice for someone doing the EBS MBA with specialization in Strategic Planning. IIRC, Prof. Kennedy has described it as an "MSc + dissertation." So for those interested in a Master's, it might soon be possible to do the coursework without the dissertation and earn an MSc (presumably in "Strategic Focus").
Far too expensive for an EU doctorate, anyway... (though I must admit that the program does look interesting - but other GB doctoral degrees in Business Admin. can be earned a lot cheaper and with less/the same amount of work - at at least same standard universities) Greets, Trigger
Trigger, what would you use as comparables? It seems fairly affordable (the distance version, not the on-campus), but I haven't checked alot of others. Thanks Tracey
Hm, the DL version is minimum 23000 Pounds, which would be roughly 41000 US-Dollar at current exchange rates. Actually, you could reccomend all British PhD´s, even some of the former Polytechnic´s, and you will most likely have less or almost no coursework (mostly only the research methods classes) and a more reputable degree in the end for a price being in most cases less than the EBS´ one... The only reason why EBS is so "bis" is that it´s DL division is simply one of the hugest ones in the world. That is not a sign for quality itself, besides Scottish schools are not really "known" in academia, excpet for the University of Glasgow actually. I personally would therefore decide for any other UK university when doing my PhD or DBA (though actually I would even rather more decide for a Aussie school, which is a lot cheaper but also very highly respected!). Anyhow, best regards, Trigger
Brit / Oz Excuse me for trying to freeload on your knowledge, Triggersoft, but, of the Brit PhD programs (not EBS), that are more respected and cheaper (your thoughts), which strike you as the most competitive? Also, if you decide to do the Australia route, which one would it be? The USQ DBA? thanks! A
Happy New Year to all Trigger, There are other Scottish universities that enjoy a similar prestige to that of Glasgow. For instance, the University of Edinburgh is a top institution within the UK. In fact, (I hope some Briton can confirm it) I have heard that the Scottish education system is stronger than the English one (my wife is an LSE alumni). Nevertheless I agree 100% that $40,000 is way too much "loot", and that there are cheaper and better options within Europe. Here in The Netherlands, for instance, PhD students are remunerated a relatively modest salary (I think about € 1500/ month), and pay no tuition. A good option for some, no question about it. Cordial Greetings
The pecking order in UK business schools used to be pretty stable. LBS at the top, then Warwick and Manchester, with Lancaster always doing well. It's rather more interesting now that Oxford and Cambridge have business schools, but the new world order is working out pretty much as one would expect. The results of the 2001 Research Assessment Exercise are at http://www.hero.ac.uk/rae/ -- the usual rule of thumb that I would use would be to not even consider applying to any department with less than a 4, and I know people who'd prefer to stick to 5 or 5* departments. None of the 5* departments offer DL at the doctoral level. Of the 5-rated departments, Manchester has just started a DL DBA through its joint venture with Bangor, and Aston has provision for DL. Angela
Hi To qualify for the Research Assessment Exercise the institution has to be receiving state funding. Heriot Watt receives states funding and departments in the hard sciences, such as Petroleum Engineering and Mathematics have 5* ratings, and several units across the University are joining as 5* research consortia with the University of Edinburgh for joint applications for shrinking publicly financed research funds. Edinburgh Business School has never applied for public funding and is wholly funded by its earnings in management education. In the past our faculty has denoted their research work to other Schools in the University so that they may do better in their RAE exercises. I would be wary if reputable academics pursue limited vision policies of deciding on their studies on criteria, the small print of which they appear to unaware about.
Ah. My misinterpretation of the RAE results. I'd always assumed that the (perfectly respectable) 4 belonged to EBS and that you were the sole business/management school at HW. In fact, I'm now somewhat confused by the distinction between EBS and the School of Management, but that's another matter entirely. Many apologies. Angela
@JLV: Yes, of course you are totally right with the Uni of E. I must admit that I simply forgot it. I personally know 2 people having studied on campus in Scottish universities. One former polytechnic, and the Uni of Glasgow. Both say the studies were a lot easier (because less theoretical) than at their former universities (one in France, and one in Germany). The education system is very different to the English one. For instance, there are several Master´s degrees which are 10-semester-degrees without a Bachelor´s in between (like the former Dutch/German/Austrian university diplomas). Besides, a good friend of mine is English and lives near the Scottish border. He told me he has never really considered Scottish universities except for maybe the two mentioned big ones. Anyhow, I´m quite sure that you might find a great education also in Scotland, but for a far deeper price as at Heriot-Watt. Even off-campus via DL. (just my 2 cents) I totally agree with that. I also looked at Heriot-Watt, as at probably EVERY British university, then regarding my MBA studies, not specifically for a Doctor´s degree, although I checked quite a few GB universities for PhD studies also. My result for both instances was that I would only consider a British degree when receiving resident=EU tuition fees, never for the extremely high Non-EU fees. Actually, I must admit that I like the British No-coursework-PhD a lot more than the Coursework-DBA programs with which you might (at least in Europe) be kind of "limited" when maybe deciding to go to Academia and teach/research. A PhD on the other side also offers you the possibility to go into Business. Without any problem at all. @angela (specifically): do your own research. I´m sorry that I cannot offer you far better alternatives just right now since I do not have bookmarks or "results" from my former investigations by hand, but it´s very easy to find an overview of all British universities (e.g. through Yahoo´s university category!). You will find out fastly that a lot of programs are far cheaper than the Heriot-Watt one, and from agilham´s list for example, you can find out how "good" the particular university is. In general, you might say that the "old" universities are considered as being better than the former "polytechnics", although there are of course exceptions. In general, you can also say that EVERY British state university offers an "accredited" and well-respected degree. So does also Heriot Watt/EBS, of course. What I just totally disklike about this school is that it "produces" so many MBA´s (although I must admit that their program does look rather well) for such a high amount of money resp. tuition fees whereas even on that Master´s level there are NUMEROUS European schools being a lot cheaper, better-known, and over the "Royal Charter" ACCREDITED by AMBA, EQUIS & Co. Besides, EBS staff seems partially uninformed about the European university system itself which I would never tolerate: when I checked about the MBA programs they told me that a German university diploma (being officially equivalent to an Anglo-American Master´s degree by EU laws and being the bringing the formal right to pursue a PhD!) would only be considered as a Bachelor´s. Too sad. Furthermore, the EBS DBA program seems to be so unflexible for me. On their website, it is said that an M.Sc. degree COULD be earned when deciding to leave the program after the taught elements. COULD. Not more. In most British universities, you automatically get a Master´s degree, namels an M.Phil. when you drop out of the program. Not at EBS, at least that is not SECURE for you. Besides, there is just an extremely rigid entry or leaving point mode. You can just gain "exemptions" for 4 (!) courses. That is ridiculous. Say you come from another DBA program, have almost succesfully competed the whole taught course, and wish to change over to EBS - you LOSE all but 4 of your courses... Too sad, again. You can not even change over when you already have an M.Sc. degree, or maybe two research based Master´s in order to just do the research prep courses and the dissertation itself. In my mind, it´s all just about money-making. Give as little exemptions/course waivers as possible in order to maximize profit. Okay, admitted that this is actually the same content you wish to learn in your Business Administration program - professionalized, formalized and applied to their own business program. But still it is sad in terms of student possibilities. I had that impression also back then when talking with their staff about the MBA program, but it seems to be totally the same with the DBA. I must admit that their marketing efforts are quite good. They watch out for potential students all over the world, take less or about the same amount of money wich for example an RA US university PhD would cost and by this way attract tons of overseas students. But, on the other hand, ask people you know that have studied or teached in England, either on the board on in your "real life" what they know of the EBS and what they have heard about how their reputation is - I am quite convinded, at least from the Englishmen I know, that the answer will be: good school, but there are tons of equal/better ones for a minor prize. The thing is just that those schools don´t do such a good marketing, and it might be of more effort to get into contact with the professors and finally receive a possibility to do your PhD there. But in the end, I´m quite sure that anyone having a good research proposal/idea/abstract will without any problems find quite a few other possibilities. That´s all what I wanted to say. (excuse my English, friends). As a result of this all, I personally decided for USQ for my Master´s because the Aussies have been a thousand times more flexible, fast in responding and simply being INTERESTED in their (single) students. Of course in my opinion/case, as for everything told... Actually, I am rather convinced that I would opt for an Aussie Doctoral program, no matter if being called DBA or PhD, if it was about costs and reputation. My second on the list would maybe be a British one, and not a South African one (which would then be my no. 3 on the list), simply because in Europe a British degree would certainly be considered "better" than a South African one - if justified or not... the latter one would certainly be a good option if it was just and only about the tuition fees. All in all, there are SEVERAL programs all over the world that offer good education, but unfortunately some of the take - in my opinion - too much money for that service. To this class belong EBS and the French ESC Grenoble, etc., etc. - althoug I do not say at all that they do not offer quality education. Certainly they do. But also almost certainly no better one than at any other GB state university or French ESC or "real" university... Actually, there are so many possibilities to do your PhD in Europe without any costs (tuition fees) at all or only very low/moderate ones that I totally dropped the 3 English language options out of my personal list. I already had quite a load of English language education in my life, and I had an option to do my PhD in my mother tongue, so that my situation is of course rather different to yours. But also in English language, there are always other possibilities. Just keep that in mind. Anyhow, I wish you all a happy new year and a lot of success for your studies or your future whatwayever... Best regards and Greets, Trigger
Angela The School of Management and Languages at Heriot Watt University is the undergraduate school of management. EBS is the graduate school of management. While we co-operate in various projects with the School of Management and Languages (its Head of School is a member of our Board of Directors) we are not connected otherwise. Some of our research contributions have passed through the SML. When EBS was set up in 1997 we became a charitable education company, wholly owned by the University. We do not receive subsidies from the University nor from government funding and are not eligible to participate in various assessment schemes. We are subject to all the Quality Assurance standards of the University - an 'inspection' is due in 2004. Incidentally, we do not price to gouge students. Our MBA is in the second quartile in cost in world MBAs - it has 10,000 students. Our DBA is comparable to US programmes - its syllabus is based on the US DBA model not the UK thesis only model - and it has 50 students (and growing). I think there is a connection. The taught part is the same price as the MBA - GBP800 a course - but the real expense comes in supervision, if you intend to do it to the high and intense standards and of a reputable university. Our DBA regulations come under the University's rules and the Head of Postgraduate Studies heads one of our 5* Schools - that's how you get them! EBS is flexible in everything except quality. I think you will find that the practice of awarding an MSc 'automaticaly' is a summary of practice, not a statutory principle in doctoral programmes in UK universities (er, standards again). Good luck in your searches.
Hi Trigger Your research based on a friend living in England, close to the Scottish border and two others, attending an Old University and a ‘Polytechnic’ (unnamed) are interesting as opinions. Scotland’s education system is different from England’s, and has always been administered from Edinburgh not London. I don’t expect residents of Germany to know this, but neither do I write about German education knowing next to zero about it. We know about continental universities in Scotland as both Glasgow and Edinburgh used to send their students to Leyden for a year to complete their theology degrees from the 18th century. I do know something about MBA pricing and know that EBS is in the second quartile in world MBA prices. Currently (since 1 January) the MBA costs GBP7,200 or USD12,250. The University of Glasgow’s current campus MBA price is GBP10,000. We have some ways to go, as North Americans put it, to get into the 3rd quartile. University rules (British Universities are governed by Charters binding on all their Schools – we are only following orders) that insist that only one exemption is permitted in a Heriot Watt degree. It has nothing to do with ‘profit maximisation’ by EBS. Credit transfer are also restricted by University regulations, not EBS. EU and non-EU students are charged exactly the same price per EBS course. This is because EBS receives no government funding or subsidies and therefore is not bound by UK Government imposed rules about charging ‘foreigners’ more than domestic students. We do not believe in, nor do we practise, discrimination. Doctoral programmes in the UK have always been by thesis only. We decided for the DBA to follow the best practice in the USA. The taught courses are the same price as the MBA courses (which has 10,000 students) but the cost of proper supervision (two supervisors per student, one local one, based in the UK) is the reason for the high cost. Presently (since October 2003), we have 50 extremely high quality DBA students (mostly paid for by their companies). The 3 Research methods modules are mandatory for a useful thesis. They won’t suit every aspiring student. Your keep mentioning the ‘former polytechnics’. Are you implying that Heriot-Watt is one such? The Polytechnics were an English not a Scottish phenomenon. Both Heriot-Watt College (1821) and the Royal College of Science and Technology (late 18th century) (now the University of Strathclyde) were long established colleges a century before the first English polytechnics were formed and then upgraded to universities. Many of the staffs of each institution were and are Fellows of the (English) Royal Society or the Royal Society of Edinburgh, appointments not given out easily. ‘Automatic’ awards of MSc and MPhils for dropping out of a doctoral programme? I think you confuse practice with statutory principle, though please inform me of which institutions this ‘automatic’ award is in their regulations. Academics wisely hold on to their discretion in these matters. I appreciate your opinions and accept that you are trying to help others here to find the best DL course for them. Of that I have no quarrel. I simply ask for a few more facts amongst your opinions and I am grateful for your repeated comments on the quality of our programmes, even if you consider them too expensive.
Hi Trigger Your research based on a friend living in England, close to the Scottish border and two others, attending an Old University and a ‘Polytechnic’ (unnamed) are interesting as opinions. Scotland’s education system is different from England’s, and has always been administered from Edinburgh not London. I don’t expect residents of Germany to know this, but neither do I write about German education knowing next to zero about it. We know about continental universities in Scotland as both Glasgow and Edinburgh used to send their students to Leyden for a year to complete their theology degrees from the 18th century. I do know something about MBA pricing and know that EBS is in the second quartile in world MBA prices. Currently (since 1 January) the MBA costs GBP7,200 or USD12,250. The University of Glasgow’s current campus MBA price is GBP10,000. We have some ways to go, as North Americans put it, to get into the 3rd quartile. University rules (British Universities are governed by Charters binding on all their Schools – we are only following orders) that insist that only one exemption is permitted in a Heriot Watt degree. It has nothing to do with ‘profit maximisation’ by EBS. Credit transfer are also restricted by University regulations, not EBS. EU and non-EU students are charged exactly the same price per EBS course. This is because EBS receives no government funding or subsidies and therefore is not bound by UK Government imposed rules about charging ‘foreigners’ more than domestic students. We do not believe in, nor do we practise, discrimination. Doctoral programmes in the UK have always been by thesis only. We decided for the DBA to follow the best practice in the USA. The taught courses are the same price as the MBA courses (which has 10,000 students) but the cost of proper supervision (two supervisors per student, one local one, based in the UK) is the reason for the high cost. Presently (since October 2003), we have 50 extremely high quality DBA students (mostly paid for by their companies). The 3 Research methods modules are mandatory for a useful thesis. They won’t suit every aspiring student. Your keep mentioning the ‘former polytechnics’. Are you implying that Heriot-Watt is one such? The Polytechnics were an English not a Scottish phenomenon. Both Heriot-Watt College (1821) and the Royal College of Science and Technology (late 18th century) (now the University of Strathclyde) were long established colleges a century before the first English polytechnics were formed and then upgraded to universities. Many of the staffs of each institution were and are Fellows of the (English) Royal Society or the Royal Society of Edinburgh, appointments not given out easily. ‘Automatic’ awards of MSc and MPhils for dropping out of a doctoral programme? I think you confuse practice with statutory principle, though please inform me of which institutions this ‘automatic’ award is in their regulations. Academics wisely hold on to their discretion in these matters. I appreciate your opinions and accept that you are trying to help others here to find the best DL course for them. Of that I have no quarrel. I simply ask for a few more facts amongst your opinions and I am grateful for your repeated comments on the quality of our programmes, even if you consider them too expensive.
Hello Professor. 1) Of course, it was only meant as opinions. 2) My ´research´ based on a little more as on these opinions since I have written a book about education in Europe, and by this also had a deeper look at the GB system(s), though admittedly mostly at the English, and less at the Scottish part. I´m aware of that, and also explicitly said so. Hm, that should be rather sad for people in Academia knowing next to zero about it. Academics in Germany do know quite a lot about the British university system. But anyway... You are totally right, you do know something about MBA pricing. As a matter of fact, I do also know something about that topic, though taking a different position than yours since I come frome a country where ´tuition fees´ were unknown words until last year or so. Having a look at almost every MBA program in the English speaking world (including English language MBA programs in Non-English speaking countries) in the last years, I took the personal impression that most programs in the US were too expensive for ordinary people like myself and most of the friends I have. That of course counts especially for the top-ranked brick-and-mortar ones. But since our topic is Distance Learning on this boad, and I was also tremendously interested in trying out a different way of education, I also checked those schools, and found significant price differences. And my - again personal - result was also that most European schools were too expensive for me, and the Oz schools the best alternative regarding price and recognition. Since both, either the Aussie DL schools as your own school, do not play in the Ivy league, and are ´just´regarded as ´good schools´ since they are both state ´accredited´, there will not be a difference in terms of recognition in the EU. Anyhow, obviously the MBA tuition is not the topic, but the DBA tuition. And this one, in my personal opinion, is FAR more expensive than most programs I discovered for myself, whereas the MBA tuition might - especially for our American friends - be in acceptable ranges. The ´profit maximization´ was an impression I continously had about your school, nothing more. A friend of mine did an exchange semester at a British university (somewhere in the Northwest, I forgot the name - it was a small rather unknown city, but could find it out) during her German diploma studies ("Hauptstudium", so the graduate/last part of her studies), and they offered her to waive half of the MBA courses for her German courses in order to also make the MBA degree there (and not only single classes), so obviously there might be some more leeway at British universities in order to gain exemptions than at your school. Every British school does so, that´s an EU law. I do appreciate that. It´s extremely sad for say our American friends to pay extraordinarily higher tuition fees. Sad enough that many US school do so with non-residents. There are also some programs having a few research orientation courses, besides there are also other DBA programs with taught elements right now. Not at all. It was in a totally different connection. Of course not by dropping out at any point, but at certain ´milestones´. I understand that. But IIRC there were quite a few British schools that listed on their websites that you reach the MPhil having reached a certain level and not continuing your Doctoral studies, and there were also schools that made it mandatory to firstly reach the MPhil before even being allowed to continue your Doctoral studies, so that the MPhil was a wanted pre-step. I had a look at some of your course material, and having studied personally at now 6 different universities all over the world, I regarded them as significantly above-average. I do not have a problem with your education, I do have one with your (DBA) pricing, and with a totally uninformed and then also rather unfriendly staff. But of course that´s all just opinion, and that´s also what I said all the time, next to the fact that there are alway alternatives, which was the conclusion of my former posting. In this regard, I wanted to make my fellow boardmembers being interested in the EBS program - especially those not living in Europe - become aware of that fact. It is always the best solution to regard as many potential choices as possible, and in the end decide for the one that also suits yourself in the best way by comparing all relevant facts & checkmarks. And of course price should be one of those, as well as service, learning modes, accreditation (which is indeed becoming more and more a topic in the EU!), and many, many more. When in the end, EBS is _the_ choice, I do not have a problem with this. Neither do I with ESC Grenoble or other comaprably high-priced schools in Europe. I simply took a different one since I was not convinced of EBS, which many people on this forum seem to be. That´s all. All I can offer my fellow-boardmen is my own experience and gathered information, my own opinion and the "Erfahrungsberichte" and thoughts of people I do know and which talked to me about these topics in Europe, students and university staff. In this sense, thank you, Prof Kennedy, for your answers and comments to my lines, and best wishes for those being on the search for a Doctoral program - take yourself time, and find try to find the one that suits you best. There are always alternatives. Best regards, Trigger (I´m sorry to say that I will not be able to answer any comments by Friday since I´m travelling through Europe and do not have Internet access in between).
Re: Brit / Oz There are also other possibilities for australian DBAs: DBA University of Newcastle DBA Charles Sturt DBA Southern Cross DBA Sunshine Coast The USQ DBA has changed from its original version to a more research oriented degree, there are also some mandatory residencies so it is not longer a 100% DL degree.
I totally agree with this statement. 40K is far too expensive compared to the 10K to 15K for an australian DBA. However, this is not related to the quality of the program but to the weaker australian dollar.
