California Graduate School of Theology

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Pastor Mark, Dec 19, 2003.

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  1. Pastor Mark

    Pastor Mark New Member

    I knew that would perk your ears. Unaccredited!

    I know about three BIG TIME preachers/pastors/denominational leaders who list the PhD from this school. Prefer not to name them. One of them refers regularly in his preaching to having "an earned PhD"

    Is California an exception? What is the difference in an unaccredited California PhD and say, a Bethany PhD?

    I'm sure California requires substantive work...and so does Bethany.

    Russell will know at least a couple of the guys I'm talking about
    ;)

    just thinking here gang...thanks in advance. I thought I'd throw it to the distance ed wolves...where if it can be shredded it will be!


    lol

    Mark
     
  2. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member


    ===





    Being a big time preacher in many situations has no scholarly component. I think it is not true that one cannot achieve in his/her denomination as a pastor with a Bethany doc. One can, I suppose. A pastor need not be an academic to succeed.

    But can one achieve academically with a Bethany grad degree in terms of being hired by an accredited school on the basis of that degree? Or, can one be prepared to contribute to research or literature in the field as in recognized, standard journals, lexicons, commentaries, or systematics ? Or, is the Bethany grad enabled to do doctoral work elsewhere in an accredited program ? If any reader has evidence of these things actually happening, please don't be shy about refering me to that proof.



    Marks asks for a "difference." Very well, one might say say ,"Both schools require substantial work." Yet, the quality of work, learning, not mere quantity, is highly correlated to the qualifications of the profs supervising that work IMO. Compare the degrees of the faculty of the Bethany bunch with this other school, Mark. How many unaccredited docs are listed at that other school? There is none, I think. This puts it a cut above Bethany of Dothan doesn't it Mark?.

    On what grounds should it be assumed that a Bethany prof can instruct with genuine rigor at the grad level in Theology/Bible if that one has not done accredited work at that level him/herself? TRACS does not assume this. Why should anyone? How many at Bethany of Dothan are even qualified in the eyes of the AABC to teach Bible at the undergrad level...two?... one?... none??

    This criticism has to do with the quality of higher Christian ed and is partly based on the norms and expectations of accreditors approved by the US Dept of Ed. That, Mark, is one difference.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2003
  3. CLSeibel

    CLSeibel Member

    In actuality, there are a handful of California Graduate School of Theology PhD's teaching at accredited Bible colleges and seminaries around North America. This cannot be said for Bethany.
     
  4. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    If you compare the faculty credentials at CGSOT to BoD, it's no contest at all. In addition, CGSOT is CA-approved. And, it doesn't use a retired (?) mill-er to shill aggressively on forum after forum (as far as I know).

    Best of all, the website is entirely in standard English, unlike that of BoD. If CGSOT's student and church constituency matches the background of its faculty and administration, hit ain't frum one a them Pank Floyd* subcultures, neither.


    *"We don't need no education; we don't need no thought control."
     
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Regardless of the academic rigor at CGSOT, Bethany, Janko's Lutheran seminary or any other unaccredited Bible college/seminary, the final product is an unaccredited degree. If an unaccredited degree meets one's present and future needs (cf. Bear, Levicoff, Walston, etc...), then the degree has utility. Will it have RA/NA utility? No. But if it meets the needs of pastoral/para church ministry, then it has utility. Will one obtain a tenured position at an RA institution? Highly unlikely. But if it allows one to teach at one of the myriad unaccredited Christian schools, and that is one's objective for obtaining the degree, it has utility. Of course, one should always seek a substantive program of study--NO DEGREE MILL SHILLING here.
     
  6. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Yes, Vladica, but some unaccredited degrees are crud and some are quality. Mark asked what the difference was. We told him what it was. The issue is not merely whether one can wow a sufficiently backward audience with a degree from Billy Bob's Shue Repare 'n' Siminery. The issue is whether CGSOT is a better school than BoD. Hands down, it is.

    CGSOT's professors, FT and adjunct, have terminal degrees from accredited schools--mostly good ones, too.

    CGSOT operates under CA approval. Whatever its deficiencies, CA approval involves real oversight. An Alabama license does not.

    CGSOT represents a cultural tradition that cares about disciplined learning. According to some representatives of BoD's cultural tradition who post here, its culturtal tradition does not. (I wouldn't know.)

    CGSOT does not use a spurious accreditor or deliberately and incorrigibly trade upon name confusion with another, accredited school. Nor is it shilled by someone who has run mills. Nor does it pass off access to a local public library as tantamount to access to a real theological library. Nor does it offer non-standard degrees. Nor is its website written by semiliterates.

    Does this make CGSOT a great or even a very good school? Hardly. Does this put CGSOT light years ahead of BoD? Easy peasy.

    Since you brought WLS into it, CGSOT does not reject accreditation for ecclesiastical or theological reasons, as do WLS and BJU, z.B. Also, your characterization of WLS as Janko's seminary is potentially confusing. It is the seminary of my church body, but I do NOT possess a degree from WLS and have never claimed or given anyone to understand that I did. Nor have I ever at any time given out that I was a spokesman or representative of WLS. I am not. (This, by the way, differs sharply from varying and obfuscatory claims made by a famed BoD representative regarding an accredited seminary in Indiana which he attended for a while.) I have a BA, an MDiv, and an MA. Each is from an RA or RA+ATS school. None is from WLS.

    Furthermore, just to underline the difference, I have no connection with CGSOT of any kind. Until my review of information concerning CGSOT prompted by this thread, all I knew about it was that it was a CA-approved school with a largely Korean-American constituency.
     
  7. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2003
  8. Craig Hargis

    Craig Hargis Member

    My dissertation director at Louisiana Baptist had his Ph.D. from CGSOT, which at one time had the highest level of California recognition ( I can't remember what the three levels were.) He had his masters from the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary, which is accredited. His BA was from Baptist Bible College which is accredited now, (and an RA candidate) but not when he graduated. He had some graduate study at Bob Jones too. I found his level of direction, his discourse, his knowlege, and his understanding of his field to be roughly comparable to other instructors I have had at a variety of accredited schools. Beyond that, as a man who pastored for thirty five years his resources in practical experience were very deep. CGSOT is still extant but under different management. It is horribly expensive--astronomical for an unaccredited school--however it is entirely residential, no DL. I thought the faculty looked reasonably good.,
     
  9. flipkid

    flipkid New Member

    I disagree only slightly. What may be my best may not be your best...each of us have different ability and gifting. What if the best is an unacredited school as opposed to no school? As you say in this post rigor can occur in nonacredited theological schools. If what you say is true then some times it is not the easy way out. It is a choice that hopefully an individual makes after much research and much prayer. If we truly gave it to the Master then who is man to scorn what we have offered?

    Of course now it is said because of the computer that is not possible but when I started back to school that was the option as far as the field was concerned. (This has been discussed in earlier posts so no need to repeat) So I gave my best then.
    I could not afford it so I did what I could afford without going deeper into debt. While some claim great faith in going to school and not knowing where the money is coming from I claimed proper stewardship of what has already been entrusted to my hands to take care of my family.

    Now that I can do better financially I do...still using proper stewardship however as I detest debt...taking and paying for one class at a time...and yes it is RA through DL not to please anybody else but me...not for church employment but pleasure. It may take 6 years at this rate but I can afford it this way...any other way I can not.
     
  10. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    flipkid


    I would be happy to explain to a pulpit committee my choice of a South African Theology degree. I would say that it fit my finances and my need to not relocate. I would say I had a desire to have my work guided and approved by professors with accredited degrees not phony credentials from Mickey Mouse schools. I would say that I desired to obtain a qualification deemed the equivalent of RA accreditation , therefore, I opted for a state university in South Africa .

    I chose to pay $2000 for my degree which likely is less than what an unaccredited , substandard US program would cost. I would point out that I bought the real thing. I would say that probably many now in unaccredited doc programs would go to SA too except that someone mistakenly told them that unaccredited masters would do them just fine. UZ accepts accredited applicants.

    Then I would share my coursework or dissertation. I would point out that four professors from three state SA universities some with grad US degrees evaluated my work. I would say, unlike the bozos at some UA US schools, that these profs actually are recognized in their field. In my case I would say that a local professor with a PhD from Dallas TS also critiques at my work. I would also remind them that the Christian faith is not confined to America and Jesus does not just live in Detroit!

    Then, I would point out those teaching in quality schools with SA degrees as Philip Comfort author of "The Text of the Earliest NT Greek MSS." I believe that pulpit committee might see things my way. As for old Bill, he is told, his ad comes out in the Jan newsletter of the Evangelical Theological Society volunteering to gratuitously teach DL courses. (I'm on SS/Pers now so do not want pay). Hopefully I'll get a call.

    When did I say that Theological academe is the sole judge of a man's motives or resources or heart ? I did not say that.

    I said theological academe dislikes what some unaccredited schools do. If such schools misrepresent their rigor and are substandard in teaching the Word of God , then why don't you vent your ire on them? Why do you act upset instead toward those good men and women who teach and administrate at accredited schools , who have paid the price and have experienced the rigor of a quality education, who think the misrepresentation and shabby programs of some unaccredited schools need to be exposed , and who feel qualified to do so?

    The way I paid for my schooling was to work flipkid! During the MA/MDiv I painted houses in the summer and taught school 10 months a year. During my ThM I taught school full time and interim pastored part time. That's why it took me longer. That's how I paid for my degrees.


    It does NOT suppose everyone interested in seminary or Bible college is going into academics. It does not! It does suppose that students should be taught well. Why should any think that he knows better than TRACS or the AABC or the administration of RA/ATS seminaries what constitutes a good theological education? These say qualified teachers need accredited degrees.



    As for someone just too impoverished to pay even $2000 for a quality SA degree, then let him find a good(cheaper?) UA school. But please, don't encourage him to attend a school which gives advanced degrees in Bib/Theo when the profs themselves have no accredited advanced degrees in those areas. It is these advanced degrees given by "retarded " schools which is a mockery and a sham.
     
  11. flipkid

    flipkid New Member

    ***Rest easy...I am not.***
     
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Janko,

    1) My designation of WLS as "Janko's seminary" was because I didn't remember the name of the school, only that you had previously stated it was not RA. I don't think anyone received the impression that WLS is "Janko's seminary," i.e., in terms of ownership. :) But if so, apologies are rendered.

    2) It appears you do not want your degrees associated with the unaccredited WLS, even though WLS trains/prepares ministers for a life-time of service within your community of faith. If my post gave the impression you were a grad of WLS, that was not my intention. Again, apologies are rendered.

    CORRECTION:

    1) WLS is NOT Janko's seminary.
    2) None of Janko's degrees are from WLS, but each is either RA or RA/ATS. ;)
     
  13. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Hi Vladica.

    No apologies are necessary. My concern was quite specific. There is a retired mill operator who plays fast and loose with degree credentials and likes to create the impression he graduated from a school he only briefly attended, and to dissemble about his reasons for leaving that school. Such a person might have seized upon your well-intentioned characterization in order to play a tu quoque game, and I was at pains to forestall that.

    But no, I don't want my degrees "associated with" WLS--they're not from WLS--and there is certainly no "even though it prepares..." about it. If you are trying to imply that I don't want my degrees associated with WLS because they're RA and WLS isn't, well, then, you will have a fight on your hands. I doubt that you are trying to imply that, but the abovementioned flummerer might well seize upon your statement to make it appear so.

    I mentioned that my degrees are RA in order to clear myself of any possible claim of special pleading with regard to this or that unaccredited school. You brought WLS into it as something of an irrelevancy, normally harmless, but potentially confusing or even harmful since this thread concerns, in part, BoD, an institution in whose defence misrepresentations, special pleadings, resume fudgings, and crap-and-blather of every kind abound.

    Now, go and sin no more (and given your Wesleyan/Arminian theology, you might not--who knows?).
     
  14. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    flipkid

    I think you are saying above that I am lumping all unaccredited schools and the people who go there together. I don't think I said that. I said some, by that I mean very few of the very many, UC theological schools are good.

    They are proven IMO to have quality when the rigor of their programs allow their grads to do a higher degree in an accredited school. Schools are not shown to have rigor because their grads are hired by churches. Since church committees hire grads of millish schools while proving utility in that regard does not evince the quality of the program of that school. The hiring might be based on a number of factors as denominational affiliation or friendships made or giftedness not at all developed by the school.

    But a good question is, if even a bad school gives a good chance of getting hired, then isn't utility demonstrated? To a degree, in that limited context, it is, yes. My concern is that perhaps what is learned about the Bible and Theology in such schools may be substandard. My concern is for the quality of instruction.

    BTW, I personally have no problem with profs of practical theology not having accredited ThDs/PhDs-hopefully not phony docs though. 30 years of pastoral experience should enable one to teach pastoral theology up through the Mdiv level IMO.

    A good theological education partly is accomplished by having a qualified faculty and a sound curriculum which parallels that of accredited schools, including high expectations. IMO such as Andersonville which you reference where docs are "earned" with obvious substandard requirements make little substantial effort to be quality. If that poor effort is what a church hiring committee salivates over, then fine I don't need that church.

    I can also easily believe that the majority of students in substandard schools think that their programs are the equal of accredited ones. I do not judge the hearts of these. But, flipkid, IMO, as an example, when the president of Golden State picks up both a ThD and a PhD from two different "schools" in but two years, then he darn good and well knows that these degrees are substandard and resemble in no way accredited docs. Yet, he lists them as academic credentials! I do criticize such as that.

    You say I am preaching to empty pews. Not a bad analogy. But not exactly true. Search for our recent skirmish here with an administrator of Golden State where the Unk provided for our enjoyment a Golden Dissertation to examine. Search for our matchup with Jimmy who designed systematic theology courses for Bethany. The pews are not always empty but the ears there are generally deaf. They don't care

    You say why not try to help out such schools instead of just being critical. Why not get on their side and not divide the Church. I would. I would give freely 20 hours a week in my present circumstance to help an unaccredited school which is sincerely seeking accreditation. But why do you think they want help? Why do you think they care? Do you really think they will fire their profs with mickey mouse docs and hire new ones who have accredited degrees? Do you really think they will change their curricula to match that of accredited programs? These schools are making money, everybody gets to call everyone "Dr. , Dr.", and church committees, as you say, lap it up. So why would they change just to have honest programs?

    These schools know their error, flipkid. Andersonville knows that no other US evangelical accredited seminary gives a doc in theology for the same amount of work as in an MDiv. Bethany knows AABC /TRACS requires accredited degrees for profs. Bethany also knows that no accredited evangelical seminary gives PhDs in Bible with no work in the original languages. Golden State knows that theological doctoral dissertations are not 80 pages of the author's own unsupported opining and that no one can do two doc programs in two years. Do you really think they would listen to me/us or anyone else who says, "Look here, the study of God's Word deserves better " ?


    You reference meeting the requisites of church hiring committees. Church folks as committees or pastors or school chums and profs do not necessarily speak for God in my eyes. By Tim La Haye, I was ,when in his church, chided for believing in the possibility of spiritual gifts. The "Perfect" in I Cor 13:8-10 just must mean the completion of the NT canon despite it being nearly exegetically impossible that it does ! No doubt I would never have been hired there even though I preached a couple of good sermons there when I was a kid. When briefly teaching in a Pentecostal school I was criticized for being a Baptist because I do not think that 80% of systematic theology should focus on the Holy Spirit. In a Nazarene school I was guffawed at for being a Calvinist. At Western they politely giggled because I am not a convinced pretrib dispensationalist. My convictions are not formed by the wills of hiring committees etc. I have often failed God. But not usually by caving in to the whims or hobbyhorses of hiring committees , student peers, pastors and so forth. I go theologically and educationally where I see fit. It is not pride, well maybe a little, but necessity for me.

    So, if the good church hiring committee required Andersonville over Unizul or Bethany over Point Loma Nazarene, or Goldenstate over Western then I would say "Fine, I don't need the job." You see, Flipkid, while not of the salvific sort, my belief is that God expects us to do our best in our circumstances. It is doubtful to me anyone's best is Andersonville and its ilk. If a church says Andersonville or the highway, then I will take the highway. I don't intend to compromise my position to land any job or approbation. Nor do I intend to cut anyone's throat to get a job. I'm happy to say that I've always been opinionated and that it is not an effect just of my age or diabetes.

    The reason I reference working to get money for schooling is that in an above comment you asked how can people afford it. The answer in many cases , as ours, is if a call to seminary is genuine, then like Paul financing his journies by tentmaking , we afford it by our work.

    I hope God blesses your studies,
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2003
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Are you 100% sure about the above comment, Bill. ;)
     
  16. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    ===

    Yes, I confess it:rolleyes:
     
  17. flipkid

    flipkid New Member

    Sorry for the length of time in responding

    Thanks...waiting on textbook to come in now...Philosophy class...
     

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