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Thread: ACE and respect

  1. #1
    damooster is offline Registered User
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    ACE and respect

    I am strongly considering enrollment in the American College of Education Ed.D. in Leadership degree program because it is affordable and I can complete it while overseas here in Hanoi.

    I am concerned about the reactions I will get by having a doctorate degree from a for-profit school. I was wondering if anyone here has a doctorate degree from a for-profit, and if so, how have you been received by other schools (if you're working for a university) and other doctorate degree holders. Or, do you work at a university/have a doctorate and have a personal opinion about for-profit doctorate degrees?

    I plan to finish my career abroad working in international schools. I am finishing my teacher certification through Teach Now, so I will be a licensed teacher through DC and I will then complete the requirements for a DC principal license later this year. Everything looks good on paper...just worried about the for-profit doctorate.

    Thanks.
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  2. #2
    Kizmet is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by damooster View Post
    just worried about the for-profit doctorate.
    My prediction: very few people will know, even fewer will care. Stop worrying.
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  3. #3
    Neuhaus is offline Registered User
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    Let me ask you this...

    How often do people ask where you earned your Masters or Bachelor's? Now, if the person never heard of either school, how often would you suppose they immediately Google it and check the profit status? It's a rare occurrence. As Kizmet's suggests you might consider letting it go.

    Of course it's YOUR doctorate. And if you can't get over that mental hump, no matter how illogical, then it might not be the program for you.

    ACE, while for-profit, doesn't accept federal financial aid. It is unlikely to ever find itself in the center of a major for-profit versus non-profit controversy. It won't even be affected by the rules that were implemented post-Corinthian. This isn't Phoenix. It doesn't have much of a reputation either way and its programs are geared toward a specific niche. That bodes well. If Phoenix had stuck to nurses and mid-career executives needing an MBA there would likely be a more neutral view of them as well.

    Elsewhere on this forum we compiled lists of people we found on the Internet with tenure track (and sometimes tenured) faculty positions at state and respected private schools. We even found one guy who was an institute director at an Ivy League university. Also on these boards one of our very own seems to be doing just fine in academia with a doctorate from Capella .

    Your mileage may vary, as we say. But if you walk around being all self conscious about your degree then you are likely not going to get the best mileage. You'll just sit back wallowing in self doubt while someone with a fake doctorate from a diploma mill wins over people with charisma and confidence.

    Most of the issues of "respect" come about when you piss someone off. Not too long ago we found a website proclaiming a graduate of Union Institute (RA and non-profit) to have a degree from a diploma mill because they didn't like something the guy said. If you become a Fox News commentator then someone may very well bring it up. If you are just an ordinary person then people tend not to dedicate portions of their day web searching you to find nasty things to leave anonymously in Internet comment sections.
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  4. #4
    damooster is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neuhaus View Post
    Let me ask you this...

    How often do people ask where you earned your Masters or Bachelor's? Now, if the person never heard of either school, how often would you suppose they immediately Google it and check the profit status? It's a rare occurrence. As Kizmet's suggests you might consider letting it go.

    Of course it's YOUR doctorate. And if you can't get over that mental hump, no matter how illogical, then it might not be the program for you.

    ACE, while for-profit, doesn't accept federal financial aid. It is unlikely to ever find itself in the center of a major for-profit versus non-profit controversy. It won't even be affected by the rules that were implemented post-Corinthian. This isn't Phoenix. It doesn't have much of a reputation either way and its programs are geared toward a specific niche. That bodes well. If Phoenix had stuck to nurses and mid-career executives needing an MBA there would likely be a more neutral view of them as well.

    Elsewhere on this forum we compiled lists of people we found on the Internet with tenure track (and sometimes tenured) faculty positions at state and respected private schools. We even found one guy who was an institute director at an Ivy League university. Also on these boards one of our very own seems to be doing just fine in academia with a doctorate from Capella .

    Your mileage may vary, as we say. But if you walk around being all self conscious about your degree then you are likely not going to get the best mileage. You'll just sit back wallowing in self doubt while someone with a fake doctorate from a diploma mill wins over people with charisma and confidence.

    Most of the issues of "respect" come about when you piss someone off. Not too long ago we found a website proclaiming a graduate of Union Institute (RA and non-profit) to have a degree from a diploma mill because they didn't like something the guy said. If you become a Fox News commentator then someone may very well bring it up. If you are just an ordinary person then people tend not to dedicate portions of their day web searching you to find nasty things to leave anonymously in Internet comment sections.
    Thank you.

    My concerns have more to do with me being a new father and wanting to ensure that I am taking proper steps for my family's future. I know that people will look at me and my entire body of work, but I suppose I just want to ensure that having a for-profit doctorate degree is not an automatic deal breaker.

    I'll be proud of the degree if I am accepted into the program and able to finish it.
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  5. #5
    Neuhaus is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by damooster View Post
    Thank you.

    My concerns have more to do with me being a new father and wanting to ensure that I am taking proper steps for my family's future. I know that people will look at me and my entire body of work, but I suppose I just want to ensure that having a for-profit doctorate degree is not an automatic deal breaker.

    I'll be proud of the degree if I am accepted into the program and able to finish it.
    Very few things are absolute in hiring.

    When I worked in Pennsylvania as a recruiter there were a few degrees that, at certain career levels, tended to get our attention. We didn't care if a secretary had a degree from the University of Pennsylvania. But we did care if the midlevel professional did. That didn't mean that someone with a degree from Penn automatically shot up to the top of the list or that people with degrees from other schools were dropped to the bottom. It just means that it caught our eye and caused us to scrutinize it a bit more (sometimes that wasn't a good thing for the applicant).

    When I moved to New York I watched a hiring manager positively swoon over an applicant with a degree from Penn State just because of the degree. "But he went to Penn State!" she kept saying. So what? Coming from Pennsylvania PSU grads are a dime a dozen. How about this applicant with a degree from Cornell ? She made a face. "This town is filled with Cornell , Colgate and Syracuse grads. But we never see someone with a degree from Penn State!"

    I was shocked. I never thought I would see a hiring manager actually make a face because someone graduated from Cornell.

    I've seen hiring managers hire, without hesitation, a person with a degree from the University of Phoenix or ITT Tech . I've also seen managers laugh at the degrees during screening but ultimately hire the candidate.

    There really is no absolute. There are very few degrees that result in an "automatic" anything. I've seen healthcare companies hesitate when hiring dieticians with degrees from Chiropractic and Naturopathic schools. I've seen other healthcare companies seek those sorts of candidates out because they help their "holistic" image.

    A point I made a few weeks ago is that many people who are very "boo for-profits!" don't actually know what they are against. They built up an image in their minds formed from their perception of what Phoenix, Everest and ITT Tech are all like. Schools like ACE, GCU and APUS are in a different category altogether. Two of them are cheaper than many non-profit and public schools. And all three, for the most part, appeal to a niche demographic which holds them in higher esteem.

    That said there are plenty of RA non-profit options out there. UCumberlands and Johnson University are two schools that come to mind with comparable doctorates. However, having a doctorate from a conservative Christian university might agitate a hiring manager down the road as well. You might also have a degree from a school that is the rival of the hiring manager's favorite team.

    Very few absolutes and you can't ever fully overcome bias. That said the issue you are describing is possible. It just may not be probable.
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    damooster is offline Registered User
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    Thank you Neuhaus.
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    Bruce is offline Moderator
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    I wouldn't be at all concerned, just keep in mind that the chances of landing a tenure-track position with a Top-10 school with any sort of DL or online doctorate are infinitesimal.

    However, for most schools, no one is likely to ask or care, provided the school is legitimately accredited. Heck, we've (collective DI) found many, many examples of faculty at RA schools with completely fraudulent diploma mill credentials. I certainly wouldn't worry about a RA degree that comes from a school that happens to be for-profit.
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  9. #8
    Neuhaus is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce View Post
    Heck, we've (collective DI) found many, many examples of faculty at RA schools with completely fraudulent diploma mill credentials.
    You know...it strikes me as somewhat odd that we've always found people with fraudulent degrees but I don't believe anyone has uncovered someone in such a position with an NA doctorate.

    I wonder if it is because there are many for frauds than NA doctoral grads. Or maybe a "fake" PhD has more utility than a "real" EdD /DBA.
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    SteveFoerster is offline Resident Gadfly
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neuhaus View Post
    You know...it strikes me as somewhat odd that we've always found people with fraudulent degrees but I don't believe anyone has uncovered someone in such a position with an NA doctorate.

    I wonder if it is because there are many for frauds than NA doctoral grads. Or maybe a "fake" PhD has more utility than a "real" EdD/DBA.
    I expect it's more that there aren't many doctoral programs at nationally accredited schools, and none of the ones that exist are large, so the total population of NA doctorate holders is much lower than that of people who have bought a fake one.
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    Kizmet is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveFoerster View Post
    I expect it's more that there aren't many doctoral programs at nationally accredited schools, and none of the ones that exist are large, so the total population of NA doctorate holders is much lower than that of people who have bought a fake one.
    I think that we heard that a year or two ago there were only 2 people enrolled in the DA program at HMU.
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    Here is the latest..as it were.....(page 3)

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    Neuhaus is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveFoerster View Post
    I expect it's more that there aren't many doctoral programs at nationally accredited schools, and none of the ones that exist are large, so the total population of NA doctorate holders is much lower than that of people who have bought a fake one.
    I think that's a distinct possibility (I alluded to it in my original comment but a typo "for = more" obscured it somewhat).

    But I also wonder if the absence of an NA PhD is a contributing factor. I could see it working in a few ways. A seasoned academic, without a doctorate, who needs a doctorate to keep/advance in their field is likely searching for PhD programs. If you do that you'll probably find Almeda well before you find Taft.

    I also look at these cases where professors with bogus degrees are outed and I wonder if someone with an NA degree would face the same sort of backlash by those who don't understand how accreditation actually works.

    Just a peculiar musing, I suppose.
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    Bruce is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neuhaus View Post
    I also look at these cases where professors with bogus degrees are outed and I wonder if someone with an NA degree would face the same sort of backlash by those who don't understand how accreditation actually works.
    I don't think it's really possible to get "outed" for having a NA degree, unless the outer and the target audience are hopeless academic snobs.

    All the people I've seen outed here have had either completely bogus credentials (the Columbia State "graduates" featured on Good Morning America, the woman at Mercer University with the Ed.D. from St. George University International, etc.), or on occasion, unaccredited credentials that are somewhat suspect, like this jamoke;

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    I can't recall ever seeing someone with a degree from Ashworth College , Aspen University, Harrison -Middleton University, etc., ever causing a controversy here.
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    SteveFoerster is offline Resident Gadfly
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce View Post
    I don't think it's really possible to get "outed" for having a NA degree, unless the outer and the target audience are hopeless academic snobs.
    Although sadly that's probably 90% of people in higher education . Most people's definition of "degree mill" is any school less prestigious, however slightly, than the one they attended.

    I can't recall ever seeing someone with a degree from Ashworth College, Aspen University, Harrison-Middleton University, etc., ever causing a controversy here.
    Here, no. But while I might happily hire someone with a DBA from California Miramar University, I think a lot of others in academia would not.
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    I'm 90% in the camp of it not mattering. For *me, I had some strange requirements for my last degree, so if this is your last degree, I think it's reasonable to assume it will be the degree you'll be most associated with. That may or may not matter to other people, but it's ok if it matters to you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveFoerster View Post
    Although sadly that's probably 90% of people in higher education . Most people's definition of "degree mill" is any school less prestigious, however slightly, than the one they attended.


    Here, no. But while I might happily hire someone with a DBA from California Miramar University, I think a lot of others in academia would not.
    Sounds like the absolute definition of "academic snob". I sincerely hope that is not the majority view in academia, but I have no data.
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