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  1. #1
    fritzy202 is offline Registered User
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    Found a New EdD w/ No Dissertation Requirement - Other Options

    I came across this EdD program today. It is in Community College Leadership. It is fairly new and has 3 other options instead of a normal research dissertation. It is a 3 yr cohort model, all online with a few on-site visits per year. It is expensive at $572 per credit hour, but the tuition is the same in-state or out-of-state. Just in case anyone is interested, given those that into teaching and those looking for a doctorate.

    If I could find a way to finance this I would jump on it. Listen to me! Someone slap some sense into me! I'm finally nearing the end and can almost see the light and I want to dig myself into another 3 yr. deep hole! I hope this helps someone!

    Here is the link: DCCL | Doctorate in Community College Leadership | Ferris State University, Big Rapids, Michigan
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    Rich Douglas is offline Registered User
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    1. Even if it doesn't have a traditional dissertation, expect to do some heavy and creative lifting in the other options.

    2. Before anyone considers a doctorate, it's a good idea to have a pretty clear idea on what one wants to be because of the degree and the learning experience.

  3. #3
    Randell1234 is offline Moderator
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    TEKMAN is offline Semper Fi!
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    Isn't that a big disadvantage Doctorate without research dissertation in academia? I mean if a Professional degree such as Doctor of Science without dissertation is understandable, because one just wants to advancing profession not being scholar.
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  5. #5
    me again is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by fritzy202 View Post
    Found a New EdD w/ No Dissertation Requirement
    Is a research doctorate without a dissertation really a doctorate?

  6. #6
    StefanM is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by me again View Post
    Is a research doctorate without a dissertation really a doctorate?
    It could be a doctorate but not a research doctorate.

    There are professional doctorates that do not require dissertations (MD, DO, DC, JD, DDS, etc.).

    In this case, however, the EdD DOES require a dissertation, but they are simply offering some alternative dissertation forms.

  7. #7
    Rich Douglas is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by StefanM View Post
    It could be a doctorate but not a research doctorate.

    There are professional doctorates that do not require dissertations (MD, DO, DC, JD, DDS, etc.).

    In this case, however, the EdD DOES require a dissertation, but they are simply offering some alternative dissertation forms.
    No. This point has been clarified many times on this board. Those aren't "professional doctorates." They're first professional doctorates. Big difference. They're not scholarly.

    "Professional doctorates," in systems where such a distinction is made, are still scholarly, but they target practitioners. The DBA, EdD , and DM are examples of such degrees. In some cases, there is no distinction between these "professional" doctorates and the academic Ph.D. In other cases, such as the one cited by the OP, there are distinctions.

    In the U.S., where the "little book" model of courses-plus-smaller dissertation is used even for the Ph.D., the distinctions are often minor or do not exist at all. (One distinction that sometimes arises is that the dissertation in the professional doctorate may sometimes be focused on practice and does not add to the theoretical basis of the discipline.) Thus, the Ed.D. looks very much like--or is identical to--the Ph.D. in Education . But not always. And in other cases, the dissertation might be substituted for with a comparable research project taking an alternative form.

    But the bottom line is that the degrees indicated by StefanM are not "professional doctorates and are not the correct basis for comparison. As I've described, a "professional doctorate" and a "first professional doctorate" ("degree, actually, but most these days use "doctor" in their degree titles) are, despite their similar names, very dissimilar.

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    Maniac Craniac is offline Moderator
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    Hey! I noticed in your sig line that you are a CPC. Very cool. In my current financial situation, I considered coding among many options to dig myself out. I went with something else, but I keep coding near the top of my long list of plan Bs.
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  10. #9
    Kizmet is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by StefanM View Post

    There are professional doctorates that do not require dissertations (MD, DO, DC, JD, DDS, etc.).
    OLD ISSUE ALERT ! ! ! I do not consider the JD to be a doctorate of any sort. It's a glorified Masters degree.
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  11. #10
    StefanM is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Douglas View Post
    No. This point has been clarified many times on this board. Those aren't "professional doctorates." They're first professional doctorates. Big difference. They're not scholarly.
    Yes, it is a "first professional degree" that is also a doctorate. Is it research-oriented? No, but it is still 1) a doctorate and 2) a professional degree. Is it equivalent to the "professional doctorate" that has much more in common with research doctorates? No. Is it still a professional doctorate? Yes.

    There are two major varieties of professional doctorates, as you mentioned---those focused on practice without a research component and those focused on a mixture of research and professional practice. These two varieties are not equivalent academically, but they are both doctoral degrees.

    "Professional doctorates," in systems where such a distinction is made, are still scholarly, but they target practitioners. The DBA, EdD , and DM are examples of such degrees. In some cases, there is no distinction between these "professional" doctorates and the academic Ph.D. In other cases, such as the one cited by the OP, there are distinctions.

    In the U.S., where the "little book" model of courses-plus-smaller dissertation is used even for the Ph.D., the distinctions are often minor or do not exist at all. (One distinction that sometimes arises is that the dissertation in the professional doctorate may sometimes be focused on practice and does not add to the theoretical basis of the discipline.) Thus, the Ed.D. looks very much like--or is identical to--the Ph.D. in Education. But not always. And in other cases, the dissertation might be substituted for with a comparable research project taking an alternative form.
    I agree.

    But the bottom line is that the degrees indicated by StefanM are not "professional doctorates and are not the correct basis for comparison. As I've described, a "professional doctorate" and a "first professional doctorate" ("degree, actually, but most these days use "doctor" in their degree titles) are, despite their similar names, very dissimilar.
    I never claimed that first professional degrees were equivalent to professional degrees culminating in a research component (dissertation, project, etc.).

    If a degree does not have a research component, it cannot be a research doctorate or a roughly equivalent professional doctorate. An EdD without any kind of culminating research project or dissertation WOULD have more in common with a first professional degree than with a research-based professional degree. Regardless, it would still be a professional doctorate, just of a different variety.

    I know this is a semantic issue, but if a degree has "Doctor" in its nomenclature and is a professional degree, it's a professional doctorate, regardless of its variety. It is loosely defined because there is no clear definition of what a research-oriented professional degree entails---this is why EdDs, DBAs, DMs, etc. are sometimes listed as research doctorates. "First professional degree" is more clearly defined.

  12. #11
    FJD
    FJD is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizmet View Post
    OLD ISSUE ALERT ! ! ! I do not consider the JD to be a doctorate of any sort. It's a glorified Masters degree.
    You're certainly entitled to that opinion, but I have to respectfully disagree. Mine was about 85 credits, and included a substantial research paper as an exit requirement. I'm on the verge of my second masters degree, and the JD was more challenging than both, probably put together. I wish I could give those who downplay the rigor of a JD the experience of the workload required because I would bet they'd think differently afterward. It's tough, even for really hard-working smart students.
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  13. #12
    Jonathan Whatley is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by FJD View Post
    Mine was about 85 credits, and included a substantial research paper as an exit requirement.
    How common is this? If it isn't, that would seem to weigh on the side of the JD as a category being closer to a master's than to a research doctorate.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJD View Post
    I wish I could give those who downplay the rigor of a JD the experience of the workload required because I would bet they'd think differently afterward. It's tough, even for really hard-working smart students.
    Well this is probably still true of some master's degrees too! Even some bachelor's. Kizmet wasn't necessarily downplaying the rigor of a JD.

  14. #13
    StefanM is offline Registered User
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    Here's a question for everyone:

    If the JD should not be considered as a true doctorate, should we think the same of an MD?

    It seems to me that medical doctors seem to get a free pass because they are considered "real doctors" by many in our society. Yes, the MD requires an additional year of coursework, but the coursework is professionally-oriented to train practicing physicians.

    What about Dentists? Chiropractors? Physical Therapists ?

    I do wonder if attorneys have less recognition because the ethical standards of the profession discourage the use of the term "Doctor" because it may be misconstrued by clients as a claim of medical expertise.

  15. #14
    FJD
    FJD is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Whatley View Post
    How common is this? If it isn't, that would seem to weigh on the side of the JD as a category being closer to a master's than to a research doctorate.


    Well this is probably still true of some master's degrees too! Even some bachelor's. Kizmet wasn't necessarily downplaying the rigor of a JD.
    The JD isn't a research doctorate. It's a first professional doctorate, as has been pointed out here many times before And yes, calling a JD a "glorified masters degree" is downplaying the rigor of a JD, by some 50-odd credits, and then some. If people don't think it's a "real" doctorate, fair enough. Don't like lawyers? Me, neither. But the work required to complete a JD should be respected. Glorified masters, it ain't.
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  17. #15
    Jonathan Whatley is offline Registered User
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    We agree that the MD is rigorous, but not at all like a research doctorate.

    Occasionally a medical school does require a major research product for an MD. I see a thesis requirement at Yale that a 2007 Yale document called "unique," a scholarly paper requirement at Albert Einstein College of Medicine at Yeshiva, and the requirement at Mayo Medical School for a 12-week Research Quarter including a paper for prospective publication.

  18. #16
    Jonathan Whatley is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by FJD View Post
    And yes, calling a JD a "glorified masters degree" is downplaying the rigor of a JD, by some 50-odd credits, and then some.
    MDivs are typically 90 sh. Professional licensure track master's in counseling and MFT are now commonly 48 to 60. In occupational therapy I'm seeing 70 to 90.

    So quantitatively here are a bunch of master's that approach or match the JD.

    Qualitatively, you seem to think a comparison to a master's program doesn't respect the rigor of JD work. Do you think JD work is on that much higher a level of rigor than occupational therapy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by FJD View Post
    Don't like lawyers? Me, neither. But the work required to complete a JD should be respected. Glorified masters, it ain't.
    I do like lawyers and I do respect the work required. I don't think the category master's degree is as diminutive as you seem to be seeing it here.

    Remember too that Kizmet works with engineers . I'm sure their master's degrees would break many JDs.
    Last edited by Jonathan Whatley; 02-13-2013 at 03:50 PM.

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